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HOMOSEXUALITY & THE BIBLE
by Dave
Liberated Christians, Phoenix AZ
email: davephx@primenet.com
http://www.libchrist.com
Note: Liberated Christians is primarily about
heterosexual relationships. While we are supportive of all
sexual orientations, the leaders do not have the resources to
assist them in their special issues. Thus, our Fellowship
groups are not appropriate for gays/lesbians. However,
individually Dave has done extensive biblical research and has
been active supporting homosexuality for many years. However,
there is no "official" stand as an organization on
homosexuality other than general support.
Church Tradition Only Condemns Homosexuality, Not The Bible
- Overview How does the Bible address homosexuality - the word
didn't even exist until 1869? The word first appeared in
Germany to describe the theory that from birth some people are
predisposed toward persons of the same sex. Since the biblical
languages ( Hebrew and Greek) had no words for heterosexual or
homosexual, it is anachronistic and misleading when homosexual
is used to translate a biblical text. It is wrong to proclaim
the biblical view of homosexuality since there is none. This
violates the integrity of the individual texts and the
biblical witness as a whole. Each reference to what is today
homosexuality must be read in the light of the particular
literary, cultural, and historic contexts of any particular
passage.
If Jesus ever said anything about homosexuality, it is
not recorded in the Bible, even mistranslated. He did,
however, speak extensively on God's unconditional love. Yet
instead of dwelling on biblical love, Christians have
historically been more concerned with obscure passages of
Levitical cleanliness codes and Paul's misunderstood comments
in Romans. Instead of focusing on the incredible injustice
and hatred demonstrated by Christians and others, trying to
deny homosexuals even basic civil rights, people appear more
concerned with the specific homosexual acts between consenting
adults who are naturally have a homosexual orientation. As
James B. Nelson notes, the Bible more clearly advocates a
"love ethic" rather than a "sex ethic."
Detailed Biblical Study Of Homosexuality
Traditional Church teaching falsely misuses the Bible to
judge the homosexual lifestyle. True Biblical theology begins
not with Church tradition and dogma but with the biblical
texts themselves. Biblical theology seeks to understand how
the biblical authors expressed themselves in the Koine Greek
of the time (not expanded by later modern greek meanings), in
terms of their culture. Only with this understanding is it
legitimate to define biblical sexual ethics of the NT and find
implications for today.
There is little said in the bible about homosexuality
because it was no big deal! It occupied a prominent and
respected position in most Greek and Roman cities at all
levels of society and among a substantial part of the
population. There are only 4 scriptures that are taken to say
anything about homosexuality; the Leviticus laws, I Cor 6:9,
Romans 1:26-27, and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah - and none
address loving, consenting homosexual acts as we know them
today.
There are over 600 individual "laws" in the Levitical
code, the breaking of anyone of which would make the sinner
unclean and unacceptable to God. It is an abomination to eat
pork, etc. The law is no longer in effect and its purpose was
to show that man could never follow it. The sins of Sodom and
Gomorrah, likewise have nothing to do with homosexuality.
I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original
Greek word often quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was
"porneia" which means "a harlot for hire". In Corinth in the
temples of Venus, the principal deity of Corinth, where
Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes were
kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for
the fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan Gods is what Paul
was talking about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation
and has nothing to do with gays or singles sex. This
rendering reflected the bias of the translators rather than an
accurate translation of Paul's words to a culture of 2000
years ago worshipping pagan sex gods.
Romans 1:26-27 mentions homosexual acts performed by
people who are clearly described as heterosexual. The men in
the NT patriarchal culture exerted dominance not only over
women, but over younger males as well. The nature of
homosexual acts in the Bible are so very different from what
we know as homosexuality today that the passages have no
application to today's homosexuality. Such practices as in NT
times simply no longer exist. Alleged references to
homosexuality in I Corinthians and I Timothy are the
inventions of anti-gay translators. They are not in the
original Greek texts.
For Serious Biblical Research - Resources
Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality" John
Boswell was professor of history at Yale and the winner of the
1981 American Book Award For History among other things.
Boswell's 400 page book is renowned as being the most
comprehensive study and is the result of ten years of
research. Boswell's extensive study cites from over 100 other
scholars works. Paul Robinson of The New York Times Book
Review, says of the book "John Boswell restores one's faith in
scholarship...His knowledge of the relevant scholarly
literature is remarkable, and his book displays the sweep and
control that one finds only in the work of a major historian.
Newsweek in its review said "An astonishing work of
scholarship that ranges with ease over fourteen centuries,
almost as many languages..." Boswell goes on for 60 pages just
on lexicography, texts and translations. He takes the
biblical language very seriously. Boswell was a price
winning, respected historian before his death from AIDS.
Because he was also gay does in no way take away from his
research was has been supported by many non-gay Christian
theologians.
"The New Testament and Homosexuality"
Robin Scroggs, Prof of New Testament at Union Theological
Seminary is a serious theologian and is favorable reviewed by
many theologians. He is a married heterosexual. He also cites
other theological professors that read his manuscripts and the
final book is a combination of much insight from many
Christian theologians. Scroggs, includes cites from Boswell
and expands even further.
"Body Theology"
James B. Nelson, Professor of Christian Ethics, United
Theological Seminary, New Brighton, MN. Deals with both
heterosexual and homosexual issues. William Coffin, Pastor
Emeritus, Riverside Church of New York, says "For all pastors,
counselors, and especially Church members who are silent,
timid, or negative about sexuality "Body Theology" is a
godsend." Nelson calls Christian Homophobia a sin from Jewish
through Christian times due to the false understandings. What
the Bible forbids is acts of lust, rape, idolatry, violation
of religious purity obligations, or pederasty, but no
condemnation of homosexuality in relationships of mutual
respect and love. "On the other hand, the Bible pointedly
celebrates instances of same-sex emotional intimacy, a fact
often overlooked by fearful homophobic readers.
"What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" by
Daniel Helminiask, PH.D., was ordained as a Catholic priest in
1967 and is incardinated in the Diocese of Pittsburgh. From
1981-1985 was Assoc. Prof for Systematic Theology at Oblate
School of Theology and earlier completed his Ph.D. in
systematic theology at Boston College and Andover Newton
Theological School. He currently is a pastoral counselor and a
Fellow of the Amer Assn of Pastoral Counselors and has
authored many books and articles. He concludes the Bible
says absolutely nothing about homosexuality being sinful when
you examine the actual Hebrew/Greek texts.
"In God's Image - Christian Witness to the Need For
Gay/Lesbian Equality in the Eyes of the Church By Robert
Warren Cromey, Rector, Trinity Episcopal Church
"In The Courts Of The Lord" by James Ferry (Crossroad
$22.95) This is the account of a gay priest and the incredible
journey his life took.
"Stranger At The Gate" by Mel White (Simon & Schuster
$23.00) Mel While, one of the most respected evangelical
writers coming out of the gay closet. Mel was ghost writer for
many of the books and speeches of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell
and Billy Graham. This book details the authors attempts to
hide from his natural homosexuality and his own journey as
well as examine the religious rights agenda. White is Dean of
Dallas's Cathedral of Hope, the largest gay church in the
world.
"Is The Homosexual My Neighbor? by Latha Dawson Scanzoni
(Harper $12.00) This is the revised edition of the classic
book that calls for Christians to reexamine their beliefs and
attitudes toward homosexuals. The authors look at
homosexuality from biblical, scientific and psychological
perspectives. An excellent resource.
"But Lord, They're Gay" By Rev. Sylvia Pennington. Author
was a straight women who went to San Francisco was a
"missionary" to "save" Gay people and found God in The
Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) like she had never
experienced God before. The NIV - New International Version
Example Of Mistranslations When Bill was in seminary, he had
two professors who were on the NIV committee. As with other
translations, how to translate the texts into English was in
very hot debate regarding some controversial issues. The
debate within the NIV committee was between translating based
on traditional teachings vs a more literal (or dynamic
equivalency) translation limited to what was actually said as
understood by the exact words in the culture it was written.
Since most of the NIV translators came from a traditional
conservative background, the majority view resulted in a
traditional vs more historically accurate English translation.
To varying degrees this is also true of other English
translations which reflect more a conservative agenda than a
search for God's truth. God's word should not be tampered
with. That is why a serious student looks only to the
original Hebrew/Greek texts seeking to understand what they
meant to the culture in which they were written. You also have
to realize the translation problems going from the words Jesus
spoke in Aramaic (a very vague language) to the written Greek.
Many serious biblical scholars are revealing false
traditional biblical teachings, especially regarding sexual
issues which are based on Church dogma, not original
scriptural texts.
Traditional Church Teaching
Only the false teachings of tradition church doctrine
condemns a whole class of citizens. This should be a serious
issue that Christians need to confront and deal with. Some
clergy are stepping forward such as in the MCC, and United
Methodists Reconciling Ministries. But most mainline
denominations for the most part, still indoctrinate in the
name of God, the false biblical teachings. Even though I am
very heterosexual and have no personal issue in these matters,
it greatly upsets me that any should suffer for being what God
made them.
Council of Churches Dialogue on Homosexuality and the
Bible with UFMCC. To discuss homosexuality, Robin Scroggs and
Byron Schaffer were the only two scholars to present. When
asked why a scholar was not brought in to present the other
side, that the Bible does condemn homosexuality, "they said no
scholar would argue that the Bible condemn homosexuality
because it clearly does not; even if they personally feel
homosexuality is wrong they would never argue that the Bible
says so as a scholar".
When the National Council of Churches can't find a
reputable scholar to say the Bible condemns homosexuals, it is
such a travesty that most Churches continue to teach bigotry
and want to sell it as Biblical scholarship.
Even A Bob Jones University Conservative Agrees
For conservatives that think only liberals speak out
supporting natural homosexual orientation Rev L. Robert
Arthur, from Bob Jones University (I understand you can't get
much more conservative) is also supportive.
Background: Masters degree in Bible from Bob Jones
University and further graduate work in Greek, Hebrew,
Ugaritic, Akkadian and Aramaic. He served as Asst Dean of Men
at Bob Jones, and as a Baptist preacher in Omaha Nebraska. He
wrote "Homosexuality And The Conservative Christian"
His book parallels the teachings of other scholars. The
difference is he comes from a very conservative Bob Jones
background and addresses such a conservative audience. His
conclusion is the same that scripture does not condemn
homosexuality as we know it today.
He lays out 7 basic presuppositions which he is convinced
of. He suggests for those with different theological
assumptions other books use different presuppositions but
still arrive at the same conclusions. His 7 presuppositions
are:
1. Plenary-verbal inspiration of Scripture in their
original languages. Means written by human agents of God in
their own style, grammar but the end result were the exact
words which God intended to have recorded.
2. Authority and infallibility of Scripture. Everything
in the Bible (in the original language and context) are
completely accurate.
3. For any accurate understanding of Scripture it must be
read in its entire content.
4. The best commentary on Scripture, is the Scripture
itself.
5. The language of the original Scriptures must be
understood as it was used at the time it was written.
6. In order to understand why certain events and
statements occurred, we must understand the cultural situation
of the time of those events and statements.
7. Before we can apply the teachings of the Bible to
present day, we must understand the meaning of those teachings
in the day in which they were given.
His perspective both in theology and hermeneutical
principals is conservative as taught by Bob Jones one of the
most conservative Bible Schools in America.
Before you condemn homosexual behavior consider that your
truth may be based on false understandings and
mistransliterations of scripture in modern versions which may
have very different meanings than the original biblical texts
and the culture in which they were written.
More Sample Christian's Ideas
Is homosexuality a Sin? Seems that many who study the
issue arrives at the same conclusion from all Christian
faiths.
Baptist: Rev Dr. William R. Stayton, Divinity degree
from Andover Newtown Theological School and on faculty of
LaSalle University's Grad program in Religious studies: -
"There is nothing in the Bible regarding homosexual
orientation. In fact, the Bible does not concern itself with
sexual orientation. It does speak against gang rape, male
prostitution for religious purposes, and pederasty. I lead
bible study programs on this subject and am convinced that the
Bible does not address the issue of a person's sexual
orientation."
Presbyterian: Rev. Dr. George R. Edwards, Ph.D.,
Professor Emeritus of New Testament Theology at Louisville
Presbyterian Seminary - "God does not regard homosexuality as
a sin any more than heterosexuality."
Catholic: Sister Mary Ann Ford, Servants of the
Immaculate Heart of Mary for 39 years -"Homosexual orientation
is set by age five or six..it is not a matter of choice..How
then could an all-loving God possibly violate Divine nature
and regard homosexuals as sinners?.
United Church of Christ: Dr. Karen Lebacqz, Ph.D.,
Professor of Christian Ethics Pacific School of Religion, BS
degree in Biblical history from Wellesley College and Masters
and Ph.D. in religion from Harvard University - "Scripture
speaks negatively about certain behaviors, most notably temple
prostitution, not about basic orientation or about loving
gay/lesbian relationships. What God DOES regard as a sin is
oppression, injustice, persecution, disrespect for persons.
This sin, then, is homophobia, gay-bashing, refusal to include
lesbian/gay/bisexual people into our churches - that IS a
sin."
United Methodist: Bishop Melvin Wheatley, retired after
33 years as pastor and 12 years as bishop of the Denver area.
- "The scriptures at no point deal with homosexuality as
sexual orientation...Those acts labeled as wrong out of the
context of the times in which the writers wrote and perceived
those acts to be either idolatrous, exploitative, or pagan.
The kind of relationships between two consenting adults of the
same sex which are mutual, affirming and fulfilling are not
dealt with in the Scriptures. Homosexuality is an authentic
condition of being with which some persons are endowed (a gift
of God, if you please), not an optional sexual lifestyle which
they have willfully, whimsically or sinfully chosen."
This is just a few of 19 theologians from many
denominations quoted in "Is Homosexuality A Sin?" brochure
from The Federation of Parents and Friends of Lesbians and
Gays", all saying the same thing about the false teaching that
the bible condemns homosexual behavior as we know it today.
The false Church teaching is much more of an abomination and
travesty than homosexual behavior.
Study Of Romans 1 "Unnatural Acts"
Paul is warning that many were guilty of worshipping man
instead of God and therefore was becoming an idol. The love
for that idol is an unnatural love called lust. Some men and
women allowed sex to become their god (vile affections) and
the result is turning the natural love for sex into something
unnatural (verse 26). Paul does not specify what that
unnatural sexual conduct is, but it is something not natural
for those that have made sex their God. He could have been
talking about both the male and female sex goddess prostitutes
in the Temple like he was clearly discussing in 1 Cor. For
homosexuals this part of the passage should not apply. To a
Christian, God is first in their lives and not sex so they
would not fall under this condemnation.
HOWEVER, the issue is that Paul describes men as
naturally preferring women. For men whose natural preference
is for women, to have sex with a man would violate this, as in
the case of pederasty. It is also interesting to note that
these men must "katergazomai" the act of sex with other man.
In Greek this means extreme energy is required to accomplish
the deed referred to. This would also support the view that
it was heterosexual males having anal intercourse with
heterosexual males such as to degrade those captured in battle
which was a common practice under pederasty. For a gay male,
clearly this extreme energy is not required so it does not
appear to have that meaning. Many heterosexual couples also
enjoy anal sex, which is naturally enjoyable to them, not just
to homosexuals.
From this same understanding of Paul's use of the term
"natural" there are many churches who would condemn a man
whose hair is too long, based on 1 Cor 11:14. Or "natural" can
mean what is customarily observed (cp. Romans 11:24).
Certainly in Paul's day the usual preference of people was for
the opposite sex. It appears more and more that homosexuality
is a redundant characteristic of birth just as is being
left-handed. If heterosexuality is the norm, that doesn't
mean those naturally born homosexual are any less blessed by
God.
The Importance Of Romans 2
To read Romans 1 without Romans 2 is a great error, for
Paul goes on to say that we are not to judge each other! He
points out the self-righteousness of those who have judged the
pagans just described in Romans 1. Then he reiterates Jesus'
command of the Golden Rule in his own words: "to those who by
patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality,
he will give eternal life (2:6)".
So what's happened between Romans 1 and 2? Paul is using
an "attention grabbing" technique like any good writer or
speaker. In this letter, he is concerned with trying to
bridge the gaps between Jewish Christians and Greek Christians
who were judging each other and putting each other down.
Paul starts by talking about those "awful pagans" -- a
group which both Jew and Greek Christians felt superior to.
He gives a laundry list of "sins" and the Christians are
probably going "yeh, yeh, those bad people, we are better".
Then, after having caught them in their judgementalism, he
says "by judging, you pass judgement on yourself." By using a
pagan example of sins, he could then go on to say, in
effect-GOTCHA! Do not judge! He said, "God shows no
partiality" (2:11).
Romans 1 is being misused today to bash homosexuality
much as the Jewish and Greek Christians were bashing each
other in his day. He did not write Chapter 1 to be used apart
from Chapter 2. His point was not to reinforce judgementalism
but to say stop judging.
Historical Reasons For False Teaching About Against Nature
The idea of "against nature" had anything to do with
homosexuality only occurred with the increasing emphasis of
Hellenistic Jewish and Christian moralists on sexual purity
gave rise in late Jewish apocrypha and early Christian
writings.
In the intellectual environment vehemently opposed to the
casual hedonism of the Hellenistic world, many issues which
had not been specifically sexual became so; this was the case
with marital questions such as adultery, onanism and
homosexuality. This was done by just slightly altering the
greek words!
The Judaeo-Platonist schools such is in Alexandria,
greatly influenced some early Christians, since they combined
the authority of classical learning with a tradition of Old
Testament scholarship (responsible for the Septuagint
translation which most Christians used).
For Christians, The Alexandrian rule had great influence
in what was considered "natural". In the third century Clement
of Alexandria asserted that "to have sex for any purpose other
than to produce children is to violate nature."
This concept was also taught by Philo to Platonist Jews.
Any use of human sexuality, potential or actual, which did not
produce legitimate offspring violated "nature": all moral
issues were subordinate to the primary duty of males to
procreate. Celibacy was as unnatural as homosexuality,
failure to divorce a barren wife was "unnatural" as was
masturbation.
Unfortunately Church tradition bought us these twistings
of scripture and ignores true biblical research to find the
truths of scripture. But many Christians and ministers just
think they know it all and many are totally unaware of the
background of some of their false teachings. That is why some
of today's Christianity is such a travesty. But it need not
be, if it taught more of Christ's teachings of love and
acceptance rather than legalisms that have had their meanings
twisted and were redefined by no other than Christ himself!
Pederasty Was Against Nature Not Today's Homosexuality
Many biblical scholars show that the Bible says nothing
about today's homosexuality. In the new testament, a greek
word study clearly indicates that Paul was discussing the
Greek-Roman practice of pederasty or male prostitution.
The practice of pederasty falls into three distinct
styles. First is the voluntary relationship between an older
man and a young boy. Second is the practice of slave
prostitutes. Third is that of the effeminate "call boy" or
prostitute. Other homosexual practices included a
heterosexual male degrading another heterosexual male by anal
intercourse after capturing them in battle.
Pederasty including young boys acting as prostitutes for
older males. In the greek, "Erastes" and "paiderastes" are the
terms which describe the older adult who takes an active role
in pederasty. "Eromenos" and "paidika" are the terms for the
younger passive partner. There are two sub classifications
"pais" means a boy before puberty, and "meirakion" means a
youth past puberty. The noun "charis" and the verb
"charidesthai" refer to the granting of sexual favors, as in
the younger partner granting favor to the older man. There is
no evidence of any references to same-age, same-sex, equal
loving relationships in the Bible.
Study Of Leviticus 18- 20 "Abomination"
The background of Leviticus is important to understand.
The people are being told not to act like the "pagans". This
is also the format Paul uses in Romans. "You shall not lie
with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
These words occur solely in the Holiness Code of Leviticus, a
ritual manual for Israel's priests. This prohibition of
supposedly homosexual acts follows after the prohibition of
the idolatrous sexuality of worshipping Molech, whose cult
included male cult prostitutes and bestiality. Lev 18 is
specifically designed to distinguish the Jews from the pagans
who worshipped the multiple gods of fertility cults. It also
is included with other Mosaic laws such as required killing
kids who curse their parents, the death penalty for picking up
sticks or doing other work on the Sabbath, and under the law,
slave-beating was a protected legal right!
From a Jewish prospective, the commandments given at
Sinai, including those of Leviticus (in Hebrew Jews simply
name a book after the first word that appears - "V'yikra" -
which means "then he spoke") were given to the Jewish people.
Since they were only commanded to Jews, no one who is not
Jewish need worry about obeying them. Judaism holds God
taught basic laws to all humanity before Sinai (no murder,
rape, etc), but that the more specific laws such as in
Leviticus, apply only to Jews.
Lev 20:13 is giving the penalties for the Lev 18:22
"abomination" or in the Hebrew "toevah" Unlike what the
English translation implies, toevah did not usually signify
something intrinsically evil, but something ritually unclean
for Jews. Eating pork, shellfish, lobster, eating meat 3 days
old, trimming beards, etc is just as much an "abomination".
It is used throughout the OT to designate those Jewish sins
which involve ethnic contamination or idolatry. In many other
OT verses it simply means idolatry. Lev 18 is specifically
designed to distinguish the Jews from the pagans among whom
they had been living. The prohibition of supposedly homosexual
acts follows after the prohibition of idolatrous sexuality of
worshipping Molech, whose cult included male cult prostitutes
and bestiality.
Chapter 20 begins with a prohibition of sexual idolatry
almost identical with this, and like 18, its manifest purpose
is to elaborate a system of ritual "cleanliness" whereby the
Jews will be distinguished from neighboring peoples. This was
also the interpretation given by later Jewish commentaries
such as those of Maimonides. Boswell also references much
Jewish historic discussion about the non practice of the death
penalty which is also mandated for violating the Sabbath,
cursing one's parents and many infractions listed in the
Talmud.
Internet Reply to My Leviticus: From Royce Buehler
buehler@space.mit.edu. Internet Subject "Where does which
Bible condemn Homosexuality": "As they stated, it does not
mean something inherently evil, but something taboo, something
ritually unclean. Of course, some acts that are "toevah" were
more serious than others.
The most serious act of "toevah" was idolatry. It too
carried a death penalty. Now, one common form of idolatry
among the peoples surrounding Israel was male sacred
prostitution. It is quite natural that engaging in that
specific form of idolatry would also carry the death Penalty.
Of course, if something carries the death penalty, it is
of particular importance to the Lord. If you draw up a list of
all the offenses given in Leviticus for which the death
penalty is prescribed, you will find every one of them (with
some minor shifts concerning particular forms of sanguinity in
incest) is forbidden expressly once again in Deuteronomy.
There is one exception. Only one. Of all the capital
crimes, only one was so unimportant to God that He didn't
bother to bring it up again. Guess which one. :-)
However, interestingly enough, Deuteronomy *does* forbid
male sacred prostitution. And Leviticus does not. Do you
think, just maybe, that God *did* forbid it in Leviticus? Say,
around 20:13?
No, if that were true, God would probably have put
commands against other kinds of idolatry in the same place.
You know: no fortunetelling, no wizardry, no sacrifices to
Moloch.
Oops, what do you know, those are all right there in the
same section of Leviticus too. Chapter 20. And when 1 Kings
tells about the sacred male prostitutes being kicked out of
the Temple, it repeats not just the word "toevah", but the
assertion which closes chapter 20, that the former peoples
were kicked out of the promised land for doing "all these
toevah". Apparently male sacred prostitution made the writer
of Kings think of Leviticus 20, rather than of Deuteronomy.
Odd, that.
And we never once see a concrete example of a condemned
homosexual act in the old testament which is *not* an act of
temple prostitution. (unless you argue that the Sodomites
*must* have been frowned on for their homosexuality, since we
all know that rape-murder of angels is just fine with God).
And here those nasty male temple prostitutes get kicked out
again over in 2 Kings.
How come you never see Clark Kent and Superman at the
same time? How come you never see a condemned homosexual act
in the bible without being told that the actors were either
idolaters, or actual male temple prostitutes?
Could all this possibly, juuust maybe, be more than a
wild coincidence? Are all those thousands of gay teenagers
committing suicide over a stupid misunderstanding? Would it be
all right to treat gay people as if they were ordinary human
beings, and God wouldn't even get thundering mad? Comme un fou
se croft Dieu, nous nous croyons mortels"
In addition, the Hebrew theology of women was based on
the fact man was made in the image of God and should be
treated with the same respect as God. Women, however were
created in the image of men, so they were one step further
removed from God and not deserving of the same respect. As a
result a women was under the domination of a man and used
sexually at the whim of their husband. If a man were to treat
another man in the same manner that would be degrading God. So
to "lie with a man as with a women" was blasphemous degrading
God to a mere possession as a women.
The struggle over the issue of Christian and the Mosaic
law was a serious area of confusion for the new converted
Christians. Paul addresses this in Gal 5:1-2 urging Christians
not to be "entangled again with the yoke of bondage" or to
give "heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that
turn from the truth," for "unto the pure all things are pure"
(Titus I: 14-15). Jesus said aside the purity laws and gave
the commandment of love.
Almost no early Christian writers appealed to Leviticus
as authority against homosexual acts. Those few that did,
exercised extreme selectivity in selecting which Levitical
laws to say are legitimate for Christians and which are not,
whatever suited their personal prejudice. It was clearly not
their respect for the law which created their hostility to
homosexuality but their hostility to homosexuality which led
them to retain a few passages from a law code largely
discarded. Most of Leviticus is simply not appropriate for
Christians. We no longer make animal sacrifices to God as
commanded in Leviticus. Most of us eat shrimp and lobster
which is forbidden. Many people eat that unclean animal the
pig. How many are guilty of rounding off the hair on their
temples and marring the edges of their beard (Lev 27)? Jesus
set aside all of these obsessive-compulsive purity laws and
gave the commandment of love.
Further Discussion Of "Toevah" In Leviticus As Not Immoral
Regarding the Leviticus reference to toevah being false
translated and having nothing to do with homosexuality: A
further evidence of this is toevah is used throughout the OT
to designate those Jewish sins which involve ethnic
contamination or idolatry and very frequently occurs as part
of the stock phrase "toevah ha-goyim" "the uncleanness of the
Gentiles" (e.g., 2 (4) Kings 16:3).
The significance of toevah become clear when your realize
the other Hebrew word "zimah" could have been used - if that
was what the authors intended. Zimah means, not what is
objectionable for religious or cultural reasons, but what is
wrong in itself. It means an injustice, a sin. For example,
in condemnation of temple prostitutes involving idolatry,
"toevah" is employed (e.g. 1 (3) Kings 14:24), while in
prohibitions of prostitution in general a different word
"zimah," appears (e.g. Lev. 19:29). Often but yes, not always,
"toevah" specifically means "idol" (E.g., Isa. 44:19; Ezek
7:20, 16:36; Jer. 16:18; cf. Deut. 7:25-26).
Clearly, then, Leviticus does not say that a man to lie
with man is wrong or a sin. Rather, it is a ritual violation,
an "uncleanness"; it is something "dirty" ritualistically. Lev
18 is specifically designed to distinguish the Jews from the
pagans among whom they had been living, or would live, as its
opening remark make clear - "After the doings of the land of
Egypt, .....etc and the prohibition of supposedly homosexual
acts follows immediately upon a prohibition of idolatrous
sexuality (the female temple prostitutes worshipping the pagan
fertility gods) (often mistranslated fornication but a obvious
mistranslation in the proper context).
This conclusion finds further support in the Septuagint
where the toevah is translated with the Greek word "bdelygma".
Fully consistent with the Hebrew, the Greek bdelygma means a
ritual impurity. Once again, other Greek words were
available, like "anomia", meaning a violation of law or a
wrong or a sin. That word could have been used to translate
toevah. In fact, in some cases anomia was used to translate
toevah- when the offense in question was not just a ritual
impurity but also a real wrong of an injustice, like offering
child sacrifice or having sex with another man's wife, in
violation of his property rights. The Greek translators could
have used anomia; they used bdelygma.
Evidently, the Jews of that pre-Christian era simply did
not understand Leviticus to forbid male-male sex because it is
wrong in itself. They understood Leviticus to forbid
male-male sex because it offended ancient Jewish
sensitivities: it was dirty and Canaanite-like, it was
unjewish. And that is exactly how they translated the Hebrew
text into Greek before Christ. It makes no statement about
the morality of homosexual acts as such. In today's society
similar unclean acts might include picking ones nose, burping
or passing gas.
I think its not that useful to get all hung up on Lev
cleanliness codes which made meat eating and matching of
fibers just as terrible sins. The NT is more significant for
Christians following Christ instead of Jews trying to follow
the OT rituals to be accepted by God. Jesus said not a word
even mistranslated about homosexuality.
Inspiration
The Bible is a book of word written by males. It is not
the same as the Word of God since only Jesus was "the word of
God". Some of the male writers were inspired but it seems
some were also very abusive and taught male denomination, that
the earth was flat, that slavery was supported, blacks are
from a cursed family and females need to be owned by males.
Christians continued to be inspired today and have been
throughout the centuries. Inspiration did not stop when the
bible was canonized.
You Have To Interrupt Scripture Based On Culture Of The
Time Even if you could conclude that O.T. did teach against
homosexual behavior, as with other parts of scripture, maybe
there was a cultural reason that was important enough to teach
against then, but not today.
For example, homosexual activity plants the seed of life
where it can't produce children. In biblical times, a man's
economic and personal power was often linked to larger numbers
of children (especially male) to help plant the fields and
toil the land. Further, just as in dealing with the temple
prostitutes, male homosexual prostitutes were also common and
were also considered surrogates to the pagan gods.
Philo of Alexandria, A Jewish-Greek philosopher and
contemporary of Jesus said: "Those who during intercourse
bring about the destruction of the seed are undoubtedly
enemies of nature." (Ref: On the Individual Laws 3,36).
Because of the sterility of their sexual acts he also sharply
condemns homosexuals since their seed is not planted. Today
heterosexual married couples who practice birth control are
going against nature, and might be called an abomination, just
as much as the homosexual.
Mans Afterlife Determined By Number Of Children
In the Jewish Hebrew culture a man achieved immortality
through his offspring. For example, Onan practiced coitus
interruptus to prevent his deceased brother's wife from
conceiving, so the LORD KILLED HIM! The sin was not having sex
with dead brothers wife (that was required) but the "murderous
act" that murdered the dead brothers soul no longer immortal
with no children.
Since immortality is passed through the generations, it's
clear why the sins for sexual deviation were so savagely
condemned. Under those beliefs, homosexual acts, would have
been murderous to all of one's forefathers since they did not
pass on children to the next generation and jeopardize
forefathers afterlife. Adultery was just as bad since it
mixed blood lines. Singles sex was seldom an issue since
everyone was married (often to many wives) at a young age.
One's state in the afterlife, according to other
contemporary documents of the time, was determined by the
number of living descendants one had. The more children one
had, the more wonderful one's position in the afterlife would
be. Hence, it was important to have many children. This may
have been why men of wealth had so man wives and concubines
(women as breeders). Solomon was very wealthy and had 700
wives and 300 concubines which God never spoke against. Today
we need less children not more so these "laws" relating to
protecting the bloodline do not apply.
This is an example of the Church making a whole class of
people supposedly inferior and less spiritual based on unclear
scripture that may have an entirely different meaning.
Sodom and Gomorrah Had Nothing To Do About Homosexuality
Some teach that the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was
homosexual. This has no theological support. A careful look
at scripture corrects such ignorance.
Perhaps one of the most misleading term in English is the
use of the word sodomy to describe anal penetration and/or
male homosexuality. The mere fact of this linguistic
development sealed in the minds of many English speaking
people that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. The
Church's false teaching on this issue is an abomination and
travesty, not loving homosexuals that are unfairly condemned
by this ignorance.
God appeared to Abraham telling him that he and Sara
would have a child and they were going to investigate the
wickedness in Sodom & Gomorrah. Thinking God would destroy the
cities, Abraham made a deal with God, that He would not
destroy the cities if 10 righteous people could be found in
Sodom where Abraham's nephew Lot lived.
God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham's nephew,
Lot, persuades the angels to stay at his home. Genesis 19
records that "all the people from every quarter" surround
Lot's house demanding "to know them". It was common in those
times to use violent and brutal rape as a way to humiliate and
establish power over another, not unlike in some prison
situations today. It is also done by heterosexual males which
is very unnatural for them. This was part of the terrible
acts of pederasty, the opposite of today's loving homosexual
natural relationships.
Lot attempts to protect the visitors sent by God by
offering his two virgin daughters to be raped. The people of
Sodom refuse them and the angels render the crowd blind. Lot
and his family are then rescued by the angels as the cities
are destroyed.
ALL of Sodom's people participated in the assault on
Lot's house; in no culture has more than a small minority
(7-10%) of the population been naturally homosexual. Therefore
it can be assumed most of the violators were heterosexual.
Lot's offer to give his daughters suggests he knew the crowd
had heterosexual interests - in fact offering young women for
sexual hospitality was common. While it is unclear, even if
homosexual rape was what the people were after it was do
defile the strangers unnaturally between mostly heterosexual
males against another heterosexual male as in pederasty. This
rape attempt has nothing to do with loving, consenting
homosexual love but was clearly not the reason for God's
destruction of Sodom.
Homosexuality can not be called one of the sins of Sodom,
Gomorrah or Gilbeah since it is not in any of the lists of
their sins given in the O.T. Ezekiel 16:48-50 lists the
specific sins of Sodom as pride, plenty, laziness, uncaring
for needy, haughty and worshipping idols - which was an
abomination - not homosexuality.
Some try and see in the word "abomination", a false
reference to homosexual activity. This word translated
abomination is to'ebah in Hebrew and is frequently found in
the Old Testament. If one reads it in context every where it
appears it is always connected with idolatry - never
homosexuality. Just a few examples are in Deut 7:25-26 where
it is the idol used in false worship, Proverbs 21:27 having to
do with broader false worship etc. The people of Sodom were
involved in idolatry.
The attempts to stretch "abomination" to "unclean" acts
in Leviticus as to mean homosexuality is just as false. That
would mean that we would be just as justified to claim that
the sin of Sodom was that of shellfish eating, beard trimming
or that the sin of Sodom was menstruation on the part of the
womenfolk for the same reason.
Jude 7 References To Sodom "Strange Flesh"
Jude 7 also provides another view of the sin of Sodom:
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like
manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after
strange flesh..." In another discussion of fornication it is
clear it is idolatry and has nothing to do with sexuality.
But what is this strange flesh reference?
A view of strange flesh comes from Gen 6. Here we read
of a time when the "sons of God" cohabited with the "daughters
of humans", resulting in a strange progeny called in the
Hebrew "nephilim", a rare word indicating something weird or
strange.
To examine what is meant by "sons of God" look to Job
1:6. Here we see that Satan, a fallen angel, was before God
as one of the "sons of God" we would understand the "sons of
God" to be other angels. We again get the understanding that
"sons of God are angels from Job 38:7. Strange flesh means a
linking between angelic flesh and human flesh. Remembering
that the two visitors to Lot in Sodom were angels, we see this
was also going after strange flesh. This has nothing to do
with homosexuality, but of the mixing of two distinct orders
of creation.
Why Not Condemn Heterosexuals Based on Parallel Events in Gilbeah?
Judge 19 tells of a very similar event in Gilbeah, except
that the house guest was a man, not an angel, and the people
accepted the concubine women in place of the man. The
concubine was raped until she died and the city was destroyed
- for heterosexual rape and violation of the law of
hospitality.
Gen 34 tells of a rape of Jacob's daughter Dinah by
Shechem the Hivite. As a result of this heterosexual rape,
Shechem's home town was destroyed. Yet in spite of this
destruction, we hear no one condemning heterosexuality on the
basis of this passage, but rather a condemnation of rape. So
also is the case with Sodom but even worse the attempted rape
of strange flesh (angels).
It is interesting that geologists say that the Five
Cities of the Plain were situated on an active fault, where
rocks are under tension and being pulled apart. A massive
earthquake destroyed the cities in Biblical times, and
unchecked fires accompanied them. The Dead Sea now covers the
ruined Bedouin settlements that were once Sodom and Gomorrah.
Homosexuality Is Clearly Not Unnatural
It would seem clear that homosexual would never choose
such a behavior that generated so much hate and
discrimination. Genetic research, studies of brain chemistry
and studies of identical twins raised apart, strongly suggest
its not choice but nature. It seems clear that homosexuality
is just as natural in humans as it is with other animals. The
argument it is chosen is being clearly shown as false.
Most compelling is the many personal accounts of those
that have tried so hard to change out of the fear of God, but
fail since you can not change natural sexual orientation.
Many commit suicide, or leave Christianity feeling they can't
respect a God that would make them gay and then condemn them.
How can one believe that God condemns people who love
each other tenderly and unselfishly just because they were
born homosexual. It seems abnormal only because the
predisposition is a recessive tenancy just as is
left-handedness.
Homosexual Sheep
Since 1988, the Department of Agriculture has been doing
similar studies in Idaho on hormonal and genetic differences
in rams. The reason for its importance is not only to find
human applications, but no sheepherder wants to pay $4000 for
a breeding ram that isn't interested in ewes. In an extensive
study they found the "Dud Stud Phenomenon" in some and other
rams were judged to be homosexual. The study showed that about
8.5% of rams studied were homosexual - close to the estimate
of 7-10% human homosexuals in the U.S.
Epilepsy
Epilepsy used to be viewed as demonic possession because
it was not understood. The same may have happened to
homosexuality. It simply is not understood by heterosexuals,
thus it is condemned. Maybe we as Christians need to rethink
this position and show more of Christ's love and compassion,
rather than judgement.
A Test For All Heterosexuals
Try to imagine, I mean REALLY try to imagine this
scenario. What if the Bible said that heterosexual activity
was immoral, sinful, and to be despised and avoided, while
homosexual relations were the norm the homosexuals were
following the will of God.
Now try saying to God: "I realize I am a sinner. My
heterosexual life cannot be tolerated any more. I must break
off my "wonderful" intimate relationships with my
companion/spouse of the opposite sex, and make an attempt to
live a normal life loving only those of my gender."
Such a shift would be anything but a simple act of
recognizing one's "sinful ways" yet that is what many expect
homosexuals to do! And then they blame it on the Bible
without knowing the truth of the greek scriptures and context.
That is far more an abomination and travesty that condemning
loving homosexual relationships.
There Are Some Only Emotionally Homosexual Not Naturally
A women who was raped at the age of 4 by a man, found
much more emotional closeness and understanding with women,
and "turned" lesbian. But then she "found" God and
"converted" to being heterosexual. She was not truly a
lesbian in the first place, her early life experiences caused
her to fear and avoid men. Yet some Churches call this proof
that all homosexuals can be changed. Similarly many men who
had poor childhood experiences emotionally become gay. These
situations exist but appear to me very much the minority.
Most homosexuals were born that way, did not have some bad
emotional experience but are naturally homosexual. Also some
people may have a natural born bisexuality, to naturally enjoy
both sexes.
Homosexuality in The Hebrew Patriarchy Culture
Although there is no moral condemnation of homosexuality
as such in the Bible, those who cite the Bible, especially the
OT, to condemn homosexuality need to realize the OT was
written in a very patriarchal society. Homosexuality, at
least among males, poses a serious threat to patriarchy and
could not be tolerated. This influence in a social context
clearly left a mark on the writings of the authors of
scripture.
At first it might seem that homosexuality among men
should be well received. After all, the preeminent dignity of
the male is a central doctrine of patriarchy, and what could
be more affirming of that dignity than men loving men?
However, this argument assumes that sexuality is closely
associated with the sort of love that values the beloved and
respects his/her dignity. Love in this sense is not an
important component as sexuality in a patriarchy. Rather,
sexual intercourse is one of the means by which the active
male subjugates, controls and makes use of the passive female.
Sex between men, at least when it involves some sort of bodily
penetration, is seen as requiring that one of the partners
assume the passive, female role. It is therefore inimical to
the masculine dignity of that partner. If it is accepted as a
possibility, it threatens the dignity of all men. This was a
threat well understood by the Hebrews, who had spent a
significant portion of their early history under Egyptian
domination. Egyptian soldiers routinely sodomized their
defeated enemies as a means of affirming the enemies' absolute
subjugation. This indignity was no doubt suffered by many a
Hebrew male during the Egyptian captivity, and its bitter
memory probably influenced the approach to homosexuality in
the holiness laws. Even today, it is not uncommon for men to
assert their domination of other men by forcing the others to
assume the "female" role. This is an important means of
defining and enforcing the pecking order in male prison
populations. In urban gangs dominant males often address
subordinate males in derogatory terms that are feminine in
gender.
It is also interesting to note the absence in the OT of
any hint that lesbianism is frowned upon. So long as marriage
is obligatory for women and their sexuality is tightly
controlled, lesbian dalliances pose no threat to the
patriarchal order. It in only when women achieve some degree
of control over their sexuality and committed lesbian
relationships begin to be seen as an alternative to marriage
that they become a threat.
I Cor 6:9 Greek Study:
Historical Background
Paul's 1st letter to the Corinthians has been totally
falsely twisted from the Greek to English. It says nothing at
all about homosexuality only ancient idolatry. The temple of
Aphrodite Pandemos, goddess of sexual fertility, dominated
Acrocorinthus and employed 1000 prostitutes who served in
sexual rites virtually around the clock. The Greek words
pornoi, arsenokitai and malikos, were no doubt promiscuously
available throughout the city, a city famous for her libertine
rites in the worship of idols. Acrocorinthus was the dominant
geographic feature enshrouding the Corinthian skyline and rose
to a great height of 1750 ft. above the city. Corinth,
herself, was a metaphor of fertility and libertine sexuality
among the ancient cities of Mediterrania.
Koine Greek has no word for homosexuals. Some English
translations based on an agenda, not biblical truth have
terribly mistranslated two Greek words to mean homosexual,
but with no factual foundation to do so. Some concordances
falsely claim: "arsennokoites" = a male homosexual, pederast,
or sodomite and "malakos" = soft effeminate, esp. of
catamites, men and boys who allow themselves to be used for
homosexuality.
It is the mistaken contention of some that Paul spoke of
homosexuals in two other letters. The error comes from
cultural bias which has crept into the translation of his
letters; specifically regarding two words (*malakoi* and
*arsenokoitai*). To the church in Corinth and subsequently in
a letter to Timothy Paul wrote:
"... Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor MALE PROSTITUTES (*malakoi*) nor HOMOSEXUAL
OFFENDERS (*arsenokoitai*) nor thieves nor the greedy nor
drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the
kingdom of God." I Cor. 6:9-10 (NIV)
"We also know that the law is made not for good men but
for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the
unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers and
mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and PERVERTS
(*arsenokoitais*), for slave traders and liars and perjurers."
I Tim. 1:9-10 (NIV)
What the NIV refers to in 1 Cor. 9 supposedly as
"homosexual offenders" and later in 1 Tim. 1:10 as "perverts"
is related in Paul's original letters with the single Greek
word *arsenokoitai(s)* The translators for King James render
the word as "abusers of themselves with mankind." Other
modern translations construe the term as "child molesters" or
even "sodomites" (ironic since we know that the Sodomites were
not condemned for homosexuality).
The claim this word means homosexual, defies linguistic
evidence and common sense. "Koites" generally denotes
licentious sexual activities, and corresponds to the active
person in intercourse. The prefix "Arsen", simply means
"male". It could mean a male that has sex with lots of women.
Paul made up a new word. A biblical scholar when a word is
unknown, looks for similar greek words to find a possible
meaning. Boswell concludes Paul writing in Koine Greek, took
a word from Attic Greek combined with a word from Old
Testament Greek to mean the active male prostitute. These were
common in the Hellenistic world in the time of Paul. They
served as prostitutes for both men and women. BINGO! Remember
"porneia" in the same verse that has been mistranslated
fornication but was really female temple prostitutes? Guess
what? Paul also is condemning the male prostitutes that also
were in the temples of the sex gods!
Hans-Michael (hans@teleport.com) did an excellent job of
summarizing, on the Internet, the serious biblical research on
this passage by saying:
"The various translations of the idiom *arsenokoitai* as
used by Paul give evidence as to its ambiguity. Arndt and
Gingrich begin their citation of the term with the reference
"a male homosexual." It might be helpful to have a lexicon to
explain what they understood a homosexual to be. If the rest
of their entry on *arsenokoites* is any evidence of this, then
one may infer a certain amount of cultural bias on the part of
these lexicographers. The citation goes on to list "pederast"
(man who molests boys) and "sodomite" (meaning vague). Child
molesters are a subset of both homosexuals as well as
heterosexuals. A pederast is not however synonymous with a
male homosexual."
"The term *arsenokoitai* is only used twice in the
original texts of the Bible; in the two passages by Paul just
cited. Usages of the word by contemporaries of Paul (secular
or otherwise) seem to be almost nonexistent. (Father D.
Helminiak, Ph.D., a Catholic theologian writes in his book
"What the Bible *really* Says About Homosexuality": "1
Corinthians is our earliest record of the word." Yale
Professor Dr. J. Boswell writes in his award winning
"Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality": "Paul
appears to have been the first author to use the word, and it
appeared very infrequently after him.") Should Paul have
intended to condemn child molesters with this word (as Arndt
and Gingrich suggest and some translations reflect), a
generalization of the passage to condemn all homosexuals would
be disingenuous.
"Where a modern translation reports Paul's contention in
I Corinthians that "male prostitutes" shall not inherit the
kingdom of God, the KJV speaks of "the effeminate." This poor
rendering of the Greek word *malakoi* has been used to condemn
gays for the past three centuries. The mistranslation owes in
part to the already prevalent prejudice against gays present
during preparation of this version of the Bible. It also
illustrates a common misconception which is held by many
people even today, namely the stereotype that all gay men are
"effeminate" or feminine in their actions or appearance. Yet
Paul was a Greek speaking Jew and a Roman citizen. In the
culture in which he wrote the word malakoi, those who engaged
in homosexual acts were not considered to be of questionable
manhood. The Thebans even formed a legion of warriors
composed entirely of gay couples. The group possessed an
incredible esprit de corps and could boast of many victories.
"*Malakoi* suffers from the same lexical complexity. The
word *malakos* means literally "soft." There is no indication
that it was used in the time of Paul as a derogatory remark
leveled exclusively against gays. On the contrary,
Hellenistic literature is replete with examples of
heterosexuals being characterized as *malakos*. The label
seemed to indicate some sort of general moral weakness or
excess. The early church fathers invoked the word *malakos*
against masturbation. Moreover they never used the word to
imply being "effeminate" but rather list other terms for this
purpose including *thelubrios* and *androgunos* whence the
term "androgyny."
"Did Paul intend to condemn homosexuals? It would appear
that his writings leave us with no compelling evidence to
decide in the affirmative. Regardless, Paul was a poor
authority when it came to matters of sex. He remained single
all his life and wished that all men were as he. He saw
marriage as a last resort for those who couldn't control their
sexual desires. Said Paul, "it is better to marry than to
burn" (I Cor. 7:8-9). He thought marriage was good for younger
widows to keep them from growing idle and becoming "gossips
and busybodies" (I Tim.5:13). Although Paul was a devout
follower of Christ who communed intimately with the Lord, it
is fair to say that he didn't fully appreciate the love which
God created to be shared between two people."
It is a serious thing to take human bias and
misrepresentations and then sanctify them by wrapping them in
the robes of God's authority. That is clearly Scriptural abuse
and God DOES warn strongly those that try and add to His Word.
The real abomination is the false biblical teachings that hurt
so many whose only "sin" is to be just as God created them to
be. It is man that has twisted the biblical meanings for
which he needs to repent and spread the truth that their is no
sin in the natural sexual orientation of homosexuality any
more than it is a sin to be a heterosexual.
I Timothy 1:9-10 Serious Study
This passage is similar to I Cor 6:9 in that the word
arsenokoites is again included in the vices listed. Paul is
combating Christian teaching he considers heretical.
The list of vices seems connected in the order given,
with pornoi, arsenokoitai and andrapodistai grouped together.
So lets study what each of these words mean.
Pornoi in normal Greek usage means a male prostitute and
appears many times in literature of the time pointing to
either the male who sells himself, or the slave in the brothel
house. (e.g. Demosthernes, Against Adrotion 73; idem, Epistle
4,; Aristophanes, Plutus, lines 153-157 etc
Hellenistic Jewish and early Christian usage, however,
skews the apparent straightforward definition. The word does
not appear in any Septuagint book except the post Old
Testament Sirach 23:16-18. I does appear a few times in the
New Testament.
The problem here is that the word in Sirach and in the
New Testament seems to have a meaning broader than "male
prostitute" and is usually taken by scholars to refer to
sexual crimes in general. But this assumption may be due to
lack of awareness of the prominence of the male prostitute in
Greco-Roman society which may have misled some away from it's
more narrow original usual meaning.
Within the text of 1 Tim there is no reason to assume it
meant anything more than male prostitute. The juxtaposition
of pornos with arsenokoites, however, should give pause before
translating the word in a more general fashion. There is no
reason why the same relationship between malakos and
arsenokoites, that is, between the youth who is used and the
adult who uses him, could not also pertain to the two words in
1 Timothy. Pornos may effectively function in relations to
arsenokoites in precisely the same way as malakos does in 1
Corinthians.
This possibility is further supported by the third word:
andropodistes. This word means "kidnapper" or "slave dealer".
While in our culture these definitions carry differences in
meaning, in the culture of the first century they would be
synonymous. One reason a handsome boy or beautiful girl would
be kidnapped is to provide slaves for brothel houses. Thus the
kidnapper or slave dealer is the one responsible for the
pornos, who is used by arsenokoites. Should "kidnapper" not
be related to the preceding words in some fashion, it would be
unique in this list, since all the other words have some
connection with a previous or following word. The three words
would thus fit together and could be translated: "male
prostitutes, males who lie with them, and slave dealers who
procure them.
If we reflect on the Septuagint it makes sense. There is
the injunction against arsenokoites (Lev 18,20), pornos (Deut
23:18), and the kidnapper (Exod 4:16; Deut 24:7). Since
arsenokoites must be a Hellenistic Jewish coinage, and since
the vice list here does not seem dependent on that in 1 Cor
6:9-10, it may indeed be likely that this list originated in
the Hellenistic Jewish circles.
Therefore it may be concluded that the vice list in 1
Timothy may not be condemnatory of homosexuality in general,
not even pederasty in general, but that specific form of
pederasty which consists of the enslaving of boys for sexual
purposes, and the use of these boys by adult males.
Summary of 'The New Testament and Homosexuality"
By Robin Scroggs, professor of New Testament, Union
Theological Seminary, a happily married heterosexual who has
been acclaimed in many Christian publications for his serious
research about what the New Testament really says about
homosexuality.
Scroggs reason for his research was a discussion of
homosexuality by ministers. "I sat amazed as I heard the Bible
being invoked in ways that were wholly inappropriate to any
canons of biblical scholarship. Perhaps something snapped in
me...for better or worse I decided somebody needed to provide
resources that would give both clarity and honesty." He says
he has no personal interest but sees the tragic results of
false biblical scholarship and the tragic rejections of
homosexuals in the name of Christian righteousness or even
love. It is about time someone spoke honestly about the issue,
not just from emotional homophobic assumptions of what the New
Testament really says.
Conclusions: 1) The NT church was not very concerned
about homosexuality as a problem, All three instances
referring to homosexuality are from preformed traditions,
either Greek or Jewish. No single NT author considers the
issue important enough to write his own sentence about it! The
argument "against nature" is the most common form of attack on
pederasty in the Greco-Roman texts. Pederasty involved forced
male rape even by heterosexuals and slave boy prostitutes. It
says nothing about today's loving homosexual relationships.
Even in Romans 1, where Paul integrates the illustration of
homosexuality into his larger theological arguments, there is
no advance beyond idolatry and pagan vices of 1 Cor 6:9.
2) Female homosexuality gets even less attention
appearing only in Romans 1, and here with less emphasis than
male homosexuality. This is doubtlessly because little was
said in the Greco-Roman world about lesbianism, and because in
OT law no penalties attached to such female practices. This
again suggest pederasty was the vice, not homosexuality in
general. In Romans 1 Paul's language "about male
homosexuality, must have had, could only have had, pederasty
in mind."
3) The two vice lists attack very specific forms of
pederasty, not homosexuality in general.
Scroggs concludes: "The basic model of today's Christian
homosexual community is so different from the model attacked
by the New Testament that the criterion of reasonable
similarity of context is not met. The conclusion I have to
draw seems inevitable: Biblical judgments against
homosexuality are not relevant to today's debate.. should in
no way be a weapon to justify refusal of ordination, not
because the Bible is not authoritative, but simply because it
does not address the issues involved". He concludes with more
discussion that pederasty was the issue of the biblical texts,
not today's homosexual relationships.
So Called Ex-Gay Conversions
It's not possible to change someone's sexual orientation,
but it is possible to make them miserable over it.
Fundamentalists play on the spiritually and emotionally
wounded. Using the tenets of born-again fundamentalism, they
try auto convince dissatisfied homosexuals - usually young gay
men just coming out who are stressed out by family pressure
and society's intolerance -that they can change by suppressing
their orientation.
The Fundamentalists prey on people who are unhappy. what
they can't see or won't admit is that they themselves are the
sources of this very unhappiness they claim to be treating.
Countless people have been misled by ex-gay ministries
into believing that sexual orientation can be changed, only to
find, even years later, that they had found only temporary
happiness in the delusion that they had changed. These
"ex-gays" no longer call themselves gay but continue to have
same-sex feelings, dreams and arousal. Add to that the pain
of many spouses of these individuals who thought they had
married a heterosexual.
Anyone can suppress one's feelings and live a lie, for a
time, but it doesn't work in the long run. Besides, living a
lies doesn't seem like much of a Christian ethic. I've known
dozens of gay men who at one time or another were pressured or
lured into the fundamentalist-run ex-gay movement and all it
caused them was more pain. No one I know ever changed. Not
only that, no gay person I've ever met has known anyone who
changed.
When you look at someone trying to be an "ex-gay" what
you find are rather sad, desperate people playing mind games
and semantics, no "cures" or lasting changes. The whole
motivation behind the movement to change gays is political -
fundamentalist and conservative politics dressed up in a lab
coat.
The American Psychological Association (750 1st Street
NE, Washington DC 20002-4242, Telephone 202-336-5700) has
published a free booklet "Answers To Your Questions About
Sexual Orientation And Homosexuality" I recommend it highly
to anyone who wants unbiased information on this to The above
from: THE DAILY DISPATCH, Moline, Ill. August 3,1995, Guest
column by William Stosine
Some so called "ex-gays" claim they have gone straight.
However, the research seems clear that trying to change a
natural sexual orientation on of fear of God and guilt seldom
works. Perhaps it works for the few that weren't really sure
or were there orientation was influenced more by emotional
issues that biology. It seems clear however, most gays were
born that way and trying to change them is forcing them to
live a lie.
Some may leave the "gay lifestyle" by altering behavior,
but that does not make them heterosexual. They simply become
non-practicing gays, that's all. Despite "testimonies" to the
contrary, there is not one documented, authenticated case of a
actual change in sexual orientation. There has only been
change in behavior. Healthy skepticism needs to be exercised
of those claiming a heterosexual conversion.
One of may highly documented books on the failure of
conversions is "One Nation Under God" which chronicles 40
years of people trying to find a "cure" for being gay. One
example is Gary Busse and Michael Cooper the gay couple who
founded Exodus, a "ministry" aimed at turning gays into
"ex-gays." After a few years of teaching this dubious gospel -
spread in pamphlets with titles such as "Unhappy and gay? Join
the Exodus" -- they admitted to each other that they had
fallen in love, quit their movement and started preaching
tolerance and self-acceptance instead. They thus became
"former 'ex-gays.'" "One Nation" exposes many other such
attempts of how change groups appropriate terminology of other
fashionable therapies - calling themselves a "recovery
movement", while actually peddling Victorian values and using
fear of God and intimidation to scare people straight, which
often leads to suicide, not change. At their most absurd,
some suggest that what gay men supposedly ought to do is play
football; and for lesbians, what they supposedly need is a
makeover and a good manicure. This would be hilarious if it
weren't so destructive to so many whose only sin is being just
who God made them. Sadly those that turn to Exodus
International or the now defunct Quest are only asking for
more turmoil and inner-hatred. There are asking for a life of
continued guilt and despair. That is all such groups can offer
gays who are struggling to come to terms with themselves in a
hostile and rejecting world (including, sadly, a church that
often joins in the condemnation based on mistranslation and
application of the Bible.
Another example is Kent Philpott's book, The Third Sex,
in which he gives the testimonies of six homosexuals who
supposedly became heterosexual. Within a year after the book
was published, all six of the people written about sent
notarized affidavits to the publisher, stating that the book
was untrue and that they were all still homosexuals.
Nevertheless, the book continued to be printed and sold to an
unwary public for eight years afterwards. To this day, people
are "praising God" for changes that never took place. The
continued publication of that book, along with its
promulgation for eight years after having received written
denials from the subjects themselves, highlight the extent of
deception fundamentalists are willing to go to foster belief
in a goal based on illusion rather than reality. With
fundamentalism it appears that honesty and truth are
expendable items.
The Kinsey Institute has had an open offer for nearly 40
years to report on a SINGLE case of a true change in sexual
orientation, not just behavior. In 40 years there has not been
a single scientifically documented case of changed sexual
orientation.
On Prodigy Richard Kennedy Jr : I worked on a national
syndicated TV show. We contacted numerous groups to find
individuals who were former homosexuals and were "cured."
Getting lists of names, we called each one. One of our first
questions was "did you consider yourself homosexual or
bisexual before going in for treatment?" EVERYONE of the
hundred-plus people we contacted (and remember our names came
from the clinics) told us they were bisexual. We never found
one who (out of 120 people) was "formerly gay" and "now is
straight". We also asked the bisexual "cured" if they still
have a sexual desire toward same sex contacts. Almost
everyone who had been "cured" claimed to still have such
desires. The handful of those "totally cured" were asked when
they finished their treatment not one had their "cure" last
more than 2 months. We never found a candidate for the
"cured" homosexual program, so we had bisexuals instead.
Lee Sinclair on Prodigy in a public posts states: "I
spent 4 years in the ex-gay movement. I worked with the
original founder of the Exodus movement. I am thankfully set
free and GAY through much therapy and spiritual awakenings.
It was a devastating experience. It taught me at the time, to
hate myself and others. There was very little 'love' involved
with the direction of that church of thought. I now feel good
about myself again when I quit trying to change into someone
I'm not.
Thousands of gay and lesbian Christians who previously
sought any means to change have now found healing from the
self loathing society and the church has taught them to feel.
They have gone on to develop Gay Christian organizations such
as Dignity, Integrity, Affirmation, Evangelicals United, and
the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
where they can truly share the Good News of God's love for all
his people. They have further helped Gays and Lesbians learn
to life lives of honesty and integrity, something which Exodus
and the other "lie about who you are for the sake of
acceptance: organizations can never do. No wonder 30% of gay
teenagers attempt suicide when faced with this kind of
guilt-instilling and self-loathing education. May God save
His suffering gay children from the abuse and despair brought
on by the well-intentioned, albeit ignorant and destructive,
efforts of uninformed Christians and groups like Quest and
Exodus International.
Here is a bibliography of even more material that debunks
the "ex-gay" claims of groups like Exodus. "Ex-Gays? There Are
None" by Sylvia Pennington, Lambda Christian Fellowship, PO
Box 1967, Hawthorne, CA 90250; Pennington worked for a
"deliverance" ministry, but became convinced that it doesn't
work nor does God demand it. The book is documented in great
detail and discusses the Colin Cook/Homosexuals Anonymous
scandal.
Colin Cook, a Seventh-Day Adventist pastor, lived a
secret life as a homosexual. He later claimed he had been
"changed" and set out to operate a "change ministry" called
Quest, out of Reading, Pa. This farce of a ministry
attracted desperate parents of gays. guilt-ridden young gay
men, and closeted married gay men, taking thousands of dollars
for a "program" that turned out to be nothing more than a way
for Colin to continue to satisfy his own homosexual needs.
One young man wrote, "To those Adventists who would damn me to
hell for being gay, I'll look you straight in the eye and say
I've already been there. It was a place called Quest." The
sad thing is that this program was supported, promoted, and
funded by the SDA Church. At the same time, the SDA Church was
attempting to sue Kinship International, a legitimate support
group which truly ministers to the spiritual, emotional,
social and physical well-being of SDA lesbians, gays,
bisexuals and their families and friends. SDA Kinship
facilitates and promotes an understanding and affirmation
within the SDA community through education, advocacy and
reconciliation. SDA Kinship believes the Bible does not
condemn, or even mention, homosexuality as a sexual
orientation. Ellen G. White does not parallel any of the
Biblical texts, which are often used to condemn homosexuals.
Most of the anguish imposed upon God's children who grow up
gay or lesbian has its roots in a serious misunderstanding of
what the Bible says. Anyone wanting more information can call
their hotline 1-800-4-GAY-SDA or write to Kinship, P.O. Box
3840, Los Angeles, CA 90078 (info posted by Juliana Harvard on
Prodigy SDA Topic.)
"Can Homosexuals Change?" by Letha Dawson Scanzoni
article in "The Other Side" magazines reprint of a wide array
of articles dealing with Christianity and homosexuality. TOS,
300 W Apsley St.,Philadelphia, PA 19144. Not only deals with
religious claims, but also psychological claims.
"The REAL Changes Taking Place" by Ralph Blair article in
"Open Hands" the journal of the Reconciling Congregations
Program of the United Methodist Church (Vol 2,#2, Fall 1986).
Documents the failure of the ex-gay movement, noting that most
of the founders of these groups (including those that founded
Exodus) ultimately return to the gay lifestyle. Dr. Blair has
done a lot of work in this area for many years, and published
"Ex-Gays" in 1982. Can write Evangelicals Concerned, 311 E.
72nd Street., New York, NY 10021.
Change Minister Convicted of Manslaughter
Rev. T.V. Moreland, pastor of Suburban Baptist Church of
Glendale Calf, was convicted 6/22/94 of involuntary
manslaughter for the death of Michael Larkin, who died of a
self-inflicted gunshot wound. Larkin had been under pastoral
counseling from Rev. Moreland for several months prior to his
suicide. Notes and diaries found in Larkin's home and
testimony from his friends and family revealed that Rev.
Moreland had attempted unsuccessfully to change Larkin's
homosexual orientation. According to Reinzi Page, Los Angeles
Country Assistant District Attorney, this counseling caused
Larkin to fall into a deep depression and was the direct,
material cause of his taking his own life.
And more research:
After more than 40 years of research on gender identity
and sexual orientation, John Money, director of the
Psychohormonal Research Unit of the John Hopkins School of
Medicine, has observed that "it is no more possible to change
a homosexual orientation into a heterosexual one than it is to
change a heterosexual orientation into a homosexual one." He
reports that claims of change in orientations when carefully
examined turn out to be those of "persons who are bisexual to
some degree, but are not 100% homosexual, nor 100%
heterosexual."
Why are homosexuals often in great pain?
Who is responsible for many gays being frustrated, angry,
alienated and depressed by their situation? Gays would have no
problem living their lives in peace and prosperity (they often
have highest average income levels), if the majority who are
straight would recognize the legitimacy of the sexual
orientation most were born with. But straights and the Church
especially based on lies and false biblical teachings,
discriminate, demean and persecute them - not to mention the
extra burden of feelings of guilt, inferiority and despair the
church hangs around their necks until they choke and collapse
under the load.
Lets but responsibility where it belongs for the pain of
gays and lesbians - at the door of the homophobic church and
society. Homosexuals are six times more likely to commit
suicide than heterosexuals and more are alcoholics. These
facts say as much about the heterosexual as they do the
homosexuals. Sick people in the "straight" community have
long been bent on guaranteeing that the life for homosexuals
is a living hell. The real tragedy is so many sincere
Christians don't even know the lies they have been taught
regarding the difference between the homosexuality that was
condemned in the Bible vs the homosexuality of today. They
Bible says absolute nothing that would not embrace and support
with love today's loving homosexual couples.
School Is Like a Lion's Den For Gay Youths Due To The
Christian Lie One of the best examples of the result of the
Christian lie was a story in Phoenix paper about the abuse gay
teens face in school. About 28% drop out of High School.
Support groups for gay students are almost nonexistent in
Arizona. Patrick, a 17 year old has tried to form a group.
His fliers were torn down, and the group's answering machine
records 10-12 hate calls a day.
For gay students, accepting their natural sexuality
means becoming vulnerable to the emotional bombardment that
comes with it: anger, fear, isolation, suicidal thoughts and
wondering whether those closest to you will still love you. In
a heterosexual environment listening to others talk about
their girlfriends, watching them touch and share openly is
really hard for gays since they know their relationships have
to be in secret, or they have to pretend to be something they
are not. Some gays who are "out" have found ways to disarm
their attackers. Mike had taken to labeling himself "queer"
and "faggot", words that use to make him cringe. "I asked
myself, 'Why does this word have to hurt so much? Why does it
have to be a negative?' So I took its power away," Mike said.
Nathan 17, disarmed his attackers through his clothes.
He would wear Gay Pride T Shirt, short shorts and even fishnet
stockings. "When I made the statement 'I'm gay and you can't
do anything about it,' nobody confronted me. When I dressed
normal, I was called a 'fag' 50 times a day."
Mike thinks groups could work well for those that are out
but could be dangerous for those still in the closet. One
sophomore who is desperately "trying to keep my cover" said
there's no way he'd attend a support group. Every day is "like
being in jail with yourself", he says of having to watch his
every word and action.
Mel White Comes Out Of the Secret Closet
Mel White, the ghost writer behind many of the most
conservative Christian books of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson
and others, announced he is done trying to beg God to change
him and lead a life that is a lie, denying the homosexuality
God gave him. For decades, Mel prayed for deliverance had a
very happy wife and family, taught at Seminaries around the
U.S. and wrote for the leading Christian ministries. After
decades of prayer and biblical research he now declares "I am
a Christian homosexual, God made me that way and I am proud to
be a gay man."
His wife of many years gave him a gift of divorce, not in
anger but support so Mel is free to live with his gay partner.
Mel, his wife and family, continue a wonderful caring loving
relationships, and his wife fully supports his honesty,
integrity and the sexual orientation he was born with. Mel
says, in High School he could never understand all the guy
talk about dating etc. He said, he would much rather hold
hands of the football team, instead of the cheerleaders.
James Kennedy on 60 minutes show is shown preaching how
AIDS is the curse of God against homosexuals. Is he that
ignorant or just intentionally preaching lies to promote his
hate campaign against gays? Jerry Falwell talks on his radio
show about sending people incognito to the Gay Rights Parade
that was in Washington, D.C. He bragged about all the video
taken and if you would only send $40 you too could see what
the gays were up to. As one prodigy write said "I felt
embarrassed for Christianity. Don't these Christian preachers
know the message of Jesus? Or, do they just not care."
Another prodigy writer: "I say a minister named James
Kennedy on TV who was offering a book that I thought I would
like to read. I sent him the money. I received a book and
next thing I know I'm getting all this junk mail, telling me
what a good friend I am to the ministry and how he wanted me
to help him with the war on gays that he is undertaking. It
took for letters to get them to take me off their mailing
list. I Don't ever want to lose my Christian faith, but it
sure is discouraging when there is so much Christianity that
just seems so hateful and so phoney. I can imagine that
people look at ministers like Robertson & Falwell and think if
this is how God changes people, then I think I'll stay a
non-Christian.
Mel White said he would much rather be the loving gay and
stand before God in judgement that ministers like Falwell,
Robertson, or Kennedy that do so much harm to so many of Gods
children.
Christian Groups Press Gay People To Take Heterosexual
Path Highlights of Wall Street Journal Article 4/21/93
At a Pentecostal church near San Francisco a gay man is
agonizing over his inability to overcome his so called
"homosexual sin". He cries saying he has begged God to free
him by surrounding himself with Christians and spending a
month in a inpatient treatments program but nothing has
worked. He says "I'm having sex, I'm having fun, and I don't
feel bad about it." The Christians suggest its a matter of
choice and controlling the flesh, or maybe he is demonic
possession. "I just want God to accept me," he finally says.
The Christians in the movement to cure homosexuals thinks
anyone can change "if they just relax and let God do what He
want."
Many mental-health professionals and former members of
"change" groups warn that almost nobody's sexual orientation
truly changes and that the road from homosexuality to
attempted heterosexuality is littered with failure and
suffering. Instead of God's love they find self-hate, failed
attempted "normal" marriages, and suicide after they become so
distraught over not being able to "cure" themselves. The
change movement is destroying peoples lives. Exodus
International is the umbrella organization that has 65
ministries trying to make homosexuals become something they
aren't.
The articles tells of many who have tried to live a lie
as to their true sexual orientation and failed. "I think it's
the greatest abuse of psychiatry in America today," says Dr.
Isay, who is a Cornell Medical College professor and chairman
of the American Psychiatric Association's gay, lesbian and
bisexual issues committee. "The attempt to change is extremely
harmful." he says.
GAYS RECOVERING FROM TRYING TO CHANGE - OPRAH WINFREY SHOW
Joel Payne praised Oprah and her staff for their
acceptance when he appeared as a guest. For five years he was
part of an "ex-gay" Christine ministry and found it was not
valid for himself to change his natural gayness.
The show is about people who THANK GOD for being gay, vs
those who think they have to change into something they are
not. Joel, is very happy he survived the ex-gay ministry and
has come out as a loving, sensitive, caring, real, GAY man.
He is now is at peace and rejoices in the fact that God
loves him just how God created him gay! Even though he now is
HIV+ he is better off than when he was trying to please
Christians with their false teachings.
It was great to see so many homosexual Christians
celebrating their sexual orientation as well as their love for
Christ.
There Are Some Only Emotionally Homosexual Not Naturally
A women who was raped at the age of 4 by a man, found
much more emotional closeness and understanding with women,
and "turned" lesbian. But she says she "found" God and
"converted" to being heterosexual. She was not truly a
lesbian in the first place, her early life experiences caused
her to fear and avoid men. Yet some Churches call this proof
that all homosexuals can be changed.
Similarly many men who had poor childhood experiences
emotionally become gay. These situations exist but appear to
me very much the minority. Most homosexuals were born that
way, did not have some bad emotional experience but are
naturally homosexual. Also some people may have a natural
born bisexually, to naturally enjoy both sexes.
God In Today's Lives Not 2000 Yrs Ago
CHRISTIANS.. WHAT if you are WRONG about a few highly
disputed passages in the levitical code and Paul's teaching
that may only have dealt with pederasty. What if many
scholars are correct that the texts have nothing to do with
today's loving gays and lesbians yet you are doing this:
Lets just for a moment get our heads out of a 2000 year
old collection of books, written in a different culture in
another language whose interpretation is questionable and lets
LOOK AT REAL PEOPLES LIVES TODAY!
Example of a Christian devastating a lesbian seeking
God's will - Actual public prodigy post to Mark who was
condemning homosexual behavior and arguing with me, from a
lesbian that jumped in:
The Hurting Christian Lesbian
"I have been in hell since I was 12 years old trying to
change my desires. I married .. and dated as many men as I
could in order to change my desire. I have cried out to God
with such vengeance that my heart was breaking. Mark, I have
anguished over this for many, many years. I am a Baptist, I
have denied myself so much that I am in constant anxiety, pain
and suicidal. I have been concerned about God since I was 10
years old, and He is extremely important to me, extremely, and
pleasing Him is extremely important to me...I am in terrible
pain Mark, extreme pain, this is not a light theological
argument for me, this is my life."
"I don't want a reply, especially if it's to tell me I am
wrong, have been told that ALL my life in one form or the
other, that is precisely why I have such turmoil within me
Mark. I simply wish that straight people would please
understand that this is not a flip decision that people make
to 'live in sin' Mark. I just need to be able to have the
freedom to talk with God and have Him help me through, surely
He will do that?...I am in a very personal struggle right
now."
Mark replied: "you claim to be a Christian and certainly
you will not hesitate to see what God wants to teach you in
His word. Please read the following verses.." The last thing
she needed was more scripture whipping that Mark takes so much
pleasure in doing. Mark represents many Christians that would
drive some of God's children to such deep despair. I believe
such action by Christians is much more an ABOMINATION to God
then loving gay and lesbian relationships!
YOU are RESPONSIBLE to GOD for driving people from his
love and you IGNORE Christ's teaching of love over the laws.
All for a supposed sin that is no greater than the sin of
greed, pride, women having short hair, speaking out in Church,
mixing wrong fibers together or eating lobster which is more
an abomination than supposedly homosexuality!
I will be glad to stand before God, even if I am wrong,
but upholding all God's children in love and wanting to bring
them to Christ even with their maybe, highly disputed sin.
The Hurting Christian Lesbian After Finding God's Love
Now lets look at this same lesbian a few months later
after much love and ideas from some of us terrible liberal
Christian perverts on Prodigy:
"I went to MCC and I was stunned. I have not felt that
peaceful in a church. I did not feel looked down upon,
unusual, condemned, hopeless, judged, or headed for hell.
Tears came to my eyes numerous times just from the idea that
God can love me too! I was in awe as I looked around at
everyone and I felt so accepted, so loved - JUST AS I AM...
That is the first-ever- I have felt loved in a Church and the
first time I have ever experienced that God may indeed love me
also. My spirit was dying of thirst when I went in. It meant
so much to me this evening, a lifeline back to God."
She found the loving God and Christ she knew was there,
but could not find with all the sick Christians in the way.
Fundamentalist teachings were much more of a sin preventing
her to experience the love of God then the sexual orientation
God gave her. In her words again:
"I want to let all you kind people know I am realizing
that I had never met God, but I had a bad case of Religious
Addiction to Fundamentalism. I have been in the Church since
I was 10. I have NEVER seen God as LOVE, not until I came here
and met you all. I believe that God is going to bring me
through this and I will get to know Him, without all the
diseased people in between Him and I. I believe that my main
objective today is to work myself towards a healthy
spirituality, which for me, means breaking the chains of my
fundamentalist roots".
"I am through with this hypocritical life. Either
something is terribly wrong, someone has misread the Bible, or
there is an awfully cruel God, I have determined that option 2
is the most likely. I WILL pull myself from this cult, I WILL
become a whole person, and I know that this will be
accomplished with God's love and guiding hand. He has already
guided me to you (support on Prodigy)."
"And when I get through this completely, I will be a
stronger women, a more courageous person, and a proud
lesbian...and somewhere down the road I will, God willing, be
a factor in another women's oppressed spirit finding freedom
from this bondage of religious addiction." She now wants to
reach out and show other lesbians the true love of God and
Christ not the judgment and self-righteousness of many
Christians.
I ask: When you face God, who would you rather be. The
condemning Christian, or the hurting Christian lesbian that
now rejoices that God loves her as she is. I'd rather be the
hurting Christian lesbian.
Her experience and quotes used with her permission and
her tremendous encouragement to use, wanting to reach other
hurting lesbians and gays in Christ's love.
More Examples Of Gay Christian Posts From Prodigy
"I'm transported back 20 years to the time when I went to
a religious college out of fear that I was gay. I spent years
giving my life to god so that I could learn to be normal,
non-gay. I feared being gay. I knew I would be miserable and
I knew god would help me change. I prayed for deliverance. I
graduated from that University and entered the secular world
miserable. I was still in conflict. When I finally
acknowledged who I was and what I was, a weight was lifted
from me as only God can do. I have been gay since I can
remember and after all the struggle and prayer the only thing
I can conclude is that God lifted that weight from my
shoulders and said now you finally know who you are, go live
your life. I wish I had known someone like you 20 years ago.
We all experience a different awakening when we finally find
out who we really are." Sage Aphake "God Makes Gays" I am a
GAY CHRISTIAN . I spent the first twenty two years praying for
Christ to change me into a heterosexual. I spent my early
years in deep prayer on a daily basis begging Christ to make
me Heterosexual. I was miserable and ended up attempting
suicide at 17 yrs old. I spent 5 years in therapy, all the
time praying. Then Christ came to me. He showed me that he
LOVES ME AS I AM. This is the way GOD made me and IT IS OKAY
WITH OUR LORD. I live by Christ daily, and have a wonderful
life and long term partner in a monogamous relationship.
Jesus said to me that I was made homosexual for God's own
purposes and not to question. He said my strength would grow
in the face of oppression and a society that would condemn me.
He said I would receive this extra strength by using love he
has shown me as I live my life as Christ, in example to
others. You are sadly wrong if you appoint yourself
spokesperson for God. I did not choose to be who I am but was
created by God. If you gay bashers would spend one one
hundredth of the time praying that you spend on teaching
others to hate Gays and that Gays are perverts with no
feelings and are some how less than you and not worthy of the
civil rights of America, the country would be so much closer
to God.
Thomas Prokop in response to a condemning fundamentalist
"I have read God's word with a very open heart. I have
read and prayed and then read some more. The Holy Spirit has
helped me to accept my homosexuality. There was a time when
my beliefs on homosexuality were similar to yours. Kirk, I can
not tell you how many nights I cried myself to sleep begging
God to change me, to make me "normal". I did everything I
could to change. I dated women, I stayed away from other gay
people, nothing worked. Don't you get it? I didn't want to
be a gay. I very desperately wanted to NOT be gay.
Unfortunately, heterosexuality is not something God chose for
me. During the two years that I tried to change my sexual
orientation, God lead me to some other gay Christians, and
with the help of the Holy Spirit, God taught me that this is
the orientation that He chose for me! Since accepting my
sexual orientation, you would not believe the blessings that
God has bestowed upon me! I praise God every day for the life
He has given me, and for all the joy He has given me. Now, I
don't consider my homosexuality a liability, I know my
homosexuality is a gift from God!"
Jeremy Johnson in response to the questions "How could you be a Christian
and gay?"
For a long time, I didn't think it was possible to
reconcile my being gay with being a Christian. After, all, my
church preached that homosexuality was an abomination, and
that people who were gay were the vermin of the earth. During
my deepest depression I felt only hate for myself and the
deep-seated nature of my being-- all this without ever having
had a physical relationship with another man! I lived
everyday beneath a dark cloud of despair. Whenever the least
measure of desire inhabited my thought processes, I would
instantly pummel it away. Sometimes I would literally stab
myself with a sharp object when these "impure" thoughts
occurred. Then, one day I was at a crossroads. I realized I
could go no longer handing this suffering. Before me was
three choices: 1) I could kill myself and rid myself of being
an "abomination." 2) I could go "crazy" and commit myself to
an institution, 3) I could finally accept myself the way I was
and accept that God made me that way. And whatever God makes
is good! Since those dark and extremely lonely days, I have
been blessed to find others who have been through the same
terrible experience. We know today that many things the Bible
says have been misinterpreted over the centuries to enslave
and to disempower. Fortunately, Christ opened my eyes before
it was too late for me. Christ's message is one of love.
This being Good Friday, we as Christians are deep in
contemplation of the passion, agony and suffering of Christ,
who, I believe died for all our sins. Could there be any
greater sin, than disavowing Christ's command to love thy God
with all thy might, and to love thy neighbor as thy self? I
believe and follow Christ and I am also gay. That's how I am
a Christian and gay at the same time. Peace. Jeremy from NJ
Dana Wilson who asked a bible misquoting zealot if he had any idea what
agape love really meant saying:
Do you know what that means (agape)? I have spent my life
feeling condemned by people who attack, condemn, and try to
biblically pummel anyone who doesn't agree with their view. If
you would spend your time sharing real agape love, the world
you exist in would be a better place.
I can tell I wouldn't be able to approach you about me.
You would spout off your so called understanding of the Bible,
tell me to pray, have faith, stop sinning, be celibate, go to
a straight doctor, and go to a retreat for learning how to be
straight, or have demons cast out of me.
Well, I've tried all those things in my life and you know
what? I'm still gay, I have been my whole life. Yet I am a
born again Christian saved by the Blood of my Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ. I am in a full time ministry, and I have lead
dozens of people to Jesus every year. I share with them the
real agape love of Jesus, see them accept Him into their
lives. Then I get them into God's wonderful Word, and I let
the Holy Spirit do His job.
Back off, stop trying to play God. There are many
homosexual Christians, get used to it, if not, you'll be
miserable in heaven. At least by then we will be free from the
hatred and bigotry your posts are so filled with. I love God
with all my heart. If He wants me to be straight, I would have
been born that way!
Rodney Lewis discussing Are Gay Acts Sin?
Have any of you ever actually met a gay person? You run
around with your little Pat Robertson ideas and rant and rave
about how supposedly gay people have sex with five hundred
partners in their life. You put initiatives on ballots in
states limiting my rights and making second class citizens of
people you've never even met.
I am gay. I don't consider myself a pervert. I don't
have sex with children, and I don't do half the "acts" that
Christians love talking about more than us, as gays. I've
just spent three years unlearning to hate myself for what I
am. I was so ashamed because I grew up in a society where it
was taught that gays are just evil sick twisted child
molesters.
I did not ask for this. And if two years ago you offered
to take this away from me so I wouldn't have to deal with it
anymore, I would've so quickly accepted. I hated what I was
so much, and I thought a about killing myself so may times.
But now, this is who I am. My sexuality is something that
helps to define who I am, and it a valid facet of my life, as
your sexuality is of yours. You people have husbands and
wives, and that is a part of who you are.
I believe in God, but not in your god. I believe in a
god, or at least some existence other than this three
dimensional one. I do not believe in your god. My God is
love. I don't even knowing exactly what love is, so I don't
even know my own God. Your god is built on hatred and fear.
Your warped ideas about God have you believing in him only
because you fear a place called hell. Is there any sincerity
in your "love" for him, when this love is acquired through
fear? I don't think so. I don't dislike any of you, I just
wish us humans would think before we judged and decided
ourselves who is bad and who is good. Peace be with you.
Rodney Lewis
About Ex-Gay Groups - James Emerson on Prodigy
I spent 10 years of my life in Pentecostal churches
listening to everyone tell me that it was not "me". I tried
for years to change. But for all the time and effort I put
into the church, I received little back. I blame this on
ignorance. I still feel the same about God as I always have,
but only in the past couple of years have I learned to accept
myself for who I am and be comfortable with it. There is not
one heterosexual who can even begin to know what I feel or
what I have gone through. I have never met anyone truly, truly
changed to a different sexual orientation. God loves me for
who I am, and that is all I can do about it. Sure, I can
abstain from any sexual contact, but does that make me any
less homosexual? I find nothing wrong with loving another
person, and sharing everything with them, including a sexual
relationship. It took me a very long time to get to this
point. After years of examining every possibility...but I am
who I am..and all of you who are who you are, and we need to
love each other for who we are as God made us.
About "Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner" By Gerald Daley on Prodigy
My sexuality -which was God-given- is as much a part of
me as my eye color. If you hate that, then you hate me. You
need to realize that, and stop deceiving yourself that gay
people will buy into the silly distinction that so-called
good Christians like to make in order to appease their own
consciences.
As long as simply being gay is considered a sin, then we
are bashed. Why do you group my sexual orientation along with
adultery? I have been in a monogamous, loving relationship
with my partner for then years. No, we cannot have children,
but neither cam most couples past a certain age, or marriages
in which one partner is infertile.
Some of the most loving parents I know happen to be gay
couples who have gone to extraordinary lengths to adopt
children. "Good Christians" have thrown every conceivable
(pun intended) roadblock in their path in order to do so, but
they persevered and they are incredible parents.
About working in a Homosexual Recovery Program by Steven McCauley on
Prodigy
I used to work with the homosexuals in my church through
a recovery program. Of course, I was not alone, but no matter
who presided over this ministry, the results were the same: 0%
success. Our sister church had the same results. We were in
contact with numerous other churches, all with a 0% rate of
success.
Having said that, I must admit that we had partial
victories...One of our most promising individuals went for
nearly 7 months without a "temptation". And we do have several
individuals who have agreed to remain celibate and not act our
their feelings. But we do not consider these true conversions
(only guilt ridden), for they are still attracted to their own
sex.
And unfortunately, there are those who cannot handle
their extreme guilt and take their own lives. This is why I
left that particular ministry, for I did not want to be
responsible for the immense guilt that is laid upon these poor
people by the Church.
I have learned that the well-adjusted and more or less
"happy" gay individual is one who breaks off from mainline
Christian churches and frees himself of the constant guilt
trips. The miserable ones are the ones who remain under the
constant condemnation of the Church.
Comments From A Very Sincere Christian Gay
I am a single, 43 year-old, committed Christian, and work
full time for a Christian institution of mercy. And I am gay.
I have no "gay agenda" except what the desires of my heart
have always been: to find God's will for my life, to make sure
I'm in the dead center of it, and to follow Jesus, no matter
what. There are needs and desires I have. I have prayed,
fasted, take frequent communion and confession but I still
have the desire to be loved by another man.
Whether homosexuality is a genetic determination I don't
know. But I can assure you it is not a choice. Who would
choose this and bear the scorn and hatred of the rest of the
world? Just consider the mathematical impracticality of
homosexuality being a choice. Taking the Kinsey statistic of
10% homosexuality in the population, this means that if you're
straight, you have a 45% of the population available to choose
a mate from. If you're gay, only 5% is available. Who wants
odds like that?
One day in Church the preacher began gay-bashing. "And
these homosexuals coming out of the closet - that's not
right." I whispered to my neighbor, "You mean that living in
shame and fear and misery and secrecy and self-hatred is
better, instead of bringing these issues out into the light
where they can be honestly discussed?"
A couple of months ago a lady came to where I work and
talked about gays having to give up their lifestyle. I
thought, "Let me tell you about my gay lifestyle. I get up in
the morning, I say my prayers, I eat breakfast. I lead a
prayer service for the residents. I work on typesetting
Christian materials. I preach, speak at retreats, and act as
singer for special services at different churches. And I'm
celibate. And sometimes 3:00 AM finds me awake and weeping
from loneliness. What part of my gay lifestyle do you want me
to give up?
Being gay does not have that much to do with sex. It has
to do not with just who turns your head, but who turns your
heart. You can stimulate yourself sexually, but there is no
way to stimulate a hug.
I often go into the gay bars to let my gay brothers know
that Jesus loves them too. So many gays have been driven out
of their churches. One such man is now bitter against God and
the Church. He use to be a Pentecostal preacher before his
secret came out.
A Tragic Result Of Condemnation
Mary Griffith believed that if her teen son Bobby prayed
hard enough he would become a heterosexual. Bobby prayed for
years, fearing he would be punished by God for his
homosexuality. He wrote in his diary: "Why did you do this to
me God - am I going to hell?" At the age of 20 Bobby jumped
off a highway overpass and into the path of a 18 wheeler.
In a letter to other gay people in the San Francisco
Examiner, Mary Griffith wrote "I firmly believe that Bobby's
suicide is the end result of homophobia and ignorance within
most Protestant and Catholic churches and consequently within
society, our public schools and our own family. Bobby was not
drunk nor did he use drugs. Its just that we could never
accept him for who he was - a gay person. We hoped God would
heal him of being gay. According to God's word AS WE WERE LED
TO UNDERSTAND IT, Bobby had to repent or God would damn him to
hell and eternal punishment. Blindly I accepted the idea that
it is God's nature to torment and intimidate us. That I every
accepted such depravity of God toward my son or any human
being has caused me much remorse and shame. What a travesty
of God's love for children to grow up believing themselves to
be evil, with only a slight inclination toward goodness and
that they will remain undeserving of God's love from birth to
death. Looking back I realize how depraved it was to instill
false guilt in an innocent child's conscience, causing a
distorted image of life, God and self, leaving little if any
feeling of personal worth. Had I viewed my son's life with a
pure heart I would have recognized him as a tender spirit of
God's." The above is quoted in an excellent book "Is it
Choice?" by Eric Marcus. I'd encourage anyone to read this
book before pointing the finger to judge homosexual behavior.
How Many Homosexuals ???
Some claim gays only make up 1% of the population, which
would be about 2.7 million citizens. Considering 500,000
attended the gay pride day in New York City (police estimate
gays claimed 700,000), this would mean 1 in every 5 gays
living in the United States attended...including 3 year olds
and 90 year olds. Obviously that is absurd, only a very small
percentage of the total gay population would be active enough
to go to New York for the event!
The government study which showed 1.534% was not
confidential but verbal in person interviews. With all the
anti gay feelings in the U.S. what makes you think someone
would admit to a government worker, in person, they were gay.
What is amazing is that they did get 1% admittance. What
makes the study even more ridiculous is it was conducted in
two towns, both in states with anti-sodomy laws and consisted
of only 3,371 people, all men!
The Kinsey 10% study is also flawed but probably closer
to the correct figure. Its problem is one of his many research
assistants was gay and may have gone into heavily gay
populated areas. However, Kinsey's study was conducted in all
50 states and with many more people. Since no other serious
studies have been done, perhaps a 7% figure is most likely.
Regardless the number 2.7 million or 20 million, does
that mean we have the right to pass laws against all these
Americans and deny them equal rights in housing, the military,
employment etc?
There are only 3 million Jews living in the U.S. This is
only about 2% of the population. Should we enact anti-Jewish
laws because there aren't that many Jews in America?
Update on Homosexual Studies based on 1994 survey
Source: Associated Press 9/10/94 "Same-sex attraction
called high - up to 20% in US 'incidentally' gay" The problem
with prior surveys is they asked people if they considered
themselves homosexual. Of course the percentages were very
low, since few people in our homophobic society would admit to
it -especially to a stranger.
A study by Randall Sell, James Wells and David Wypij at
Harvard School of Public Health, found that 6.2% to 20.8% of
American men and 3.3% to 17.8% of women could be considered
"incidentally homosexual". The higher percentages are based on
admitted homosexual behavior or attraction since age 15. The
lower percentages are admissions of actual same sex behavior
in the last 5 years. Again the true % of actual same sex
behavior is probably much higher, but the admission rate is
greater than past studies.
The study also concludes that sexual orientation is often
in a range rather than either at the extremes. In other words,
many people are bisexual depending on the situation.
The best guess of actual homosexuality in the U.S.
population is probably 10%, again since it is likely in all
these studies many will not admit their homosexual activities
in our society that falsely teaches there is something wrong
with homosexuality, which is simply a natural sexual
orientation God gave many people..
Regardless of whether the number is 2% or 20%, the issue
is to end discrimination and the false religious teachings
that there is anything wrong with someone simply because they
have a natural homosexual or bisexual gender orientation.
Remember Jews are only 2% of the U.S. population, far
less than the homosexual population. Yet no one is running
around tying to make laws to discriminate against Jews.
Homosexuals should likewise not be discriminated against,
simply because God created them with a sexual orientation that
is offensive to perhaps 80% of the population.
Christians - WAKE UP !
Its time to take you scriptural view of homosexuality
more seriously and honestly study before using scripture to
condemn homosexuals. Mainline Christian denominations are now
understanding that traditional scriptural interpretation may
be false when you understand the culture and the greek texts.
291 congregations have now joined their denominational groups
fully accepting homosexuals in love as part of their Church -
without trying to change them! These homosexual accepting
programs are:
"Reconciling Congregation" (United Methodist Church)
"More Light Network" (Presbyterian Church USA)
"Open and Affirming" (United Church of Christ)
"Reconciled in Christ" (Lutheran)
An outstanding publication incorporating all 4
denominational programs is "Open Hands -Resource for
Ministries Affirming the Diversity of Human Sexuality" The
Winter 1993 issue has outstanding articles and lists 76
resources of CHRISTIAN materials affirming homosexuals in the
Church. It has a question and answer section with a question:
"Doesn't the Bible say same-gender sex is sin?"
Answer paraphrased: This has been taught throughout
church history. However, this tradition has been profoundly
challenged by many biblical scholars over the last two
decades. Just as the church has changed its interpretation of
the Bible regarding other social groups (blacks, slaves,
women, etc), so is its interpretation of homosexuality. The
Bible teaches the love of Christ and never directly mentions
homosexuality as we know it today. This love of Christ "to all
persons in his society outweigh an exclusionary tradition
built upon the interpretation of a few scattered Bible
verses." Remember those that declared the earth was round,
instead of flat, as the Bible indicated were once burned alive
in the name of God, for their false round earth belief.
I suggest anyone serious about the issue get a copy. $5
from Open Hands, 3801 N. Keeler Avenue, Chicago, Ill 60641
(312) 736-5526 (will take orders by phone).
Take the Bible seriously and research the original greek
texts meanings. Many Christian theologians and historians
agree that loving homosexual behavior is nowhere condemned in
scripture without mistranslating the greek and not
understanding what was being discussed (pederasty) in the
culture.
I'm very heterosexual- but I believe any false repression
due to race, sex or religion is a travesty, especially done
falsely by attempting to change the teachings of God and
Christ to support unwarranted bigoted and homophobic views.
Christians need to escape false condemnation and learn
Christ's greatest commandment-love.
Sample Catholic Homosexual Fellowship Group
Even Catholic bishops are now recognizing the false
teachings. For example, Bishop J. Terry Steib, svd has
officially welcomed the 3 year old group GRACE (Gays Rejoicing
& Affirmed in a Catholic Environment). In Memphis GRACE has a
chaplain appointed from the chancery office who lovingly
accepts and has an outreach to gays in the Diocese of Memphis.
GRACE isn't a political group. They simply want a
supportive place to worship and grow in love through a deeper
knowledge of God. By the power of the Holy Spirit they grow in
numbers and fervor in their Christian faith. Gary Salles
writes a column in their paper entitled "The Burning Bush"
which deals with being Lesbian/Gay and Christian. Gary is a
Cantor and finds it a wonderful experience of feeling love and
acceptance within the Catholic Church.
The Parable of A Sower As Applied To Homosexual Judging
Jesus gives us a parable of a sower in which he teaches
us that the message we will receive from his words will be in
proportion to the kind of soil we have in our hearts. Thus a
man with kindness and goodness in his heart will study the
Bible and focus on the way Jesus lived, and Jesus's tolerance,
kindness and love. Where another man or women with poor self
esteem or the need to control others will only focus on those
verses that allow him to claim power or authority. Such as
the verses that give him sanction to point out to others that
they are wrong in their faith or are sinners. Or, the verses
that allow him to claim exclusivity and elitism.
The way we view the Bible in regards to homosexuality
reveals the type of soil in our hearts more than any other
issue. In Leviticus God gave Moses laws to follow. Christians
who claim that they believe in the inerrant Bible conveniently
ignore all these laws - except the one they interrupt as being
against homosexuality. Many scholars believe the law
condemning homosexuality had to do with the unloving acts of
pederasty, and nothing to do with loving homosexual
relationships as we know them today. But Christians take this
one, probably mistransliterated verse and go so far as to
keep these people out of God's Churches for their perceived
terrible "sin". Yet they allow others that break many more of
the levitical laws in without any thought of even making them
change from their sinful ways.
Lev 27:18-23 tells us no one with disabilities is allowed
to make an offering to God. Lev 19:19 tells that we are not
allowed to wear clothing made of two kinds of fibers. Lev
17-10 very clearly says that if we eat rare meat God will turn
against us. Duet. 23:2 says if a child is born out of wedlock
he and his descendants for ten generations shall not be part
of the Lords people. Duet. 22:20 says that if a women has had
intercourse before marriage she has done a shameful thing.
That we must stone her to death in order to get rid of this
evil.
So why do Christians allow their Churches to be full of
descendants of the illegitimate, full of women who were not
virgin brides, and full of people who eat rare beef? Why do
most of these Christians who attend church go there wearing
clothing made of two different fibers? And last why do they
allow that all these sins but not the sin of the homosexual?
Because they know in their hearts that these issues are from a
time when men was not as civilized and had less knowledge.
They recognize that these laws are barbaric or not needed
today. But they still claim the law about homosexuality
because they have hatred, bigotry and prejudice in their
hearts. They use the Bible as an authority which then allows
them the freedom to express their prejudices. After all they
can or have committed the other sins but they do not have to
worry that they will commit the homosexual sin.
The poor soil in their hearts allow them to feel
self-righteous by attacking someone that is different from
them. They refuse hear the strong evidence that the Bible may
have been mistransliterated and that a more complete
understanding of the hebrew/greek and the culture will show
nothing sinful about today's loving homosexual couples. They
also ignore the overwhelming evidence that for most
homosexuals, God made them that way, it was never a choice.
God does not make mistakes yet many homosexuals commit suicide
or live in terrible pain wanting to please God but unable to
fulfill their natural god-given sexual orientation. That is
far more an abomination than anything in the old testament.
Gen 2:24 Creation Issues of Adam & Eve:
The assumption that the creation of humankind through
heterosexual union in Genesis and the subsequent emphasis on
marriage throughout the OT demonstrates tacit rejections of
gay sexuality is insupportable in a modern context, and it
does not seem to have occurred to early Christians. First of
all, man (male) was not created first. In Gen 1, male and
female are created at the same time. In Gen 2, a genderless
Adam (which means human being not male-Aner is the word for
male) is created. Both genders are created simultaneously.
The "cleaving to wife" issue in Gen 2:23: The Hebrew
"issa" means "women". In Gen 2:23 it has been incorrectly
translated as wife. Women not wife is more true to the
original text every time "issa" or "isha" appears in the OT.
Therefore it means to cleave to women, not necessarily a wife,
and it says nothing about men having only 1 women, as men
clearly had many wives and concubines in the culture and God
never rebuked their polygyny. David and Abraham about much was
written were never rebuked for having multiple wives.
Polygyny later started dying out probably due to economic
factors after the captivity. The point is for heterosexual
males they should cleave to women and procreate since this was
needed for humans to survive. But it says nothing about those
whose natural sexual orientation was homosexual, where
cleaving to a women would not be natural.
It is obvious even to the most naive that in order to
account for the origins of the human race the writer of
Genesis would inevitably describe the creation of the separate
sexes which produce offspring and would comment on the nature
of the union which brings about procreation. One would no
more expect an account of gay love than of friendship in
Genesis: neither could produce offspring, neither had and
neither would contribute to the story of the peopling of the
earth.
The fact that is many heterosexual couples are unable to
procreate. The Genesis creation story is telling how the
human race was created, but does not imply any condemnation of
homosexual orientation. Today we need less children and more
loving relationships - whether heterosexual or homosexual.
The purpose of the procreation story has long passed and
continued procreation is in danger of wiping out a large
amount of humanity by starvation. We need much less fruit then
when Adam & Eve got things started! The result of homosexuals
not having more unwanted children to feed could be argued is
more Christlike today. Times have changed yet some still
legalistically cling to a theme which at the time of creation
was good, but today such rampant creation threatens to destroy
Gods people. This is not the love that Christ taught in the
Sermon on the Mount where he changed all the laws and the
prophets into only love.
The creation account of Adam & Eve says nothing about
God's view of those He created homosexual. I choose to love
Gods children just as He created them, regardless of their
sexual orientation, without having to make them change just
for me to feel more comfortable. Why can't you just accept
all Gods children instead of teachings that make a living hell
for those whose only "sin" is to be as God created them.
Hate the Sin but love the sinner - Similar to Slavery Issue
That was exactly the same "Christian" argument that said
"keep slavery but love the slaves". Why are Christians today
any different from those that justified slavery by the clear
teachings of scripture that slavery was Christian.
Homosexuality is no more condemned in the Bible than Slavery.
Its only the bias of the translators and lack of understanding
about the culture and pederasty that results in English
translations that completely change the original greek/hebrew
cultural meanings. Just like slavery!
Homosexuals are falsely oppressed and persecuted as were
the slaves. Using any authority - government or religion - to
subjugate gays, to deny them EXACTLY the same rights that
"straights" enjoy is much more an abomination than their
natural sexual orientation. These rights include not only the
right to serve in the military, the rights to the same housing
options, employment, to marry and raise children (artificial
insemination, surrogate mothers, or adoption), to congregate
in a restaurant or nightclub safely, without fear of
harassment, the right to have private lives that stay private
unless the individuals choose to make their sexual orientation
public, and the right not to be called "sinners" simply for
being born that way! Unless you are standing up for these
basis civil and human rights you are an oppressor just like
good godly folks supported slavery and oppressing slaves due
to false interpretations of scriptures.
NAMBLA ISSUES
NAMBLA is a sick organization that most gays find as sick
as straights. Gays refused to allow their participation at
many Gay Pride Day festivities in 1993, including for example
in Tampa, Orlando and Miami. As a Miami Gay reported, a
local gay newspaper (which is struggling financially) refused
a prepaid ad from NAMBLA. The Gay and Lesbian Community
Center refuses to let them meet there. "NAMBLA" is a sick
group and will never earn the respect of the gay community." -
Dean Kennedy from Florida.
Another good quote regarding the antics of some far out
gays that the Christian Right are making sure everyone sees:
"If you watched a video from a Christian source or just a few
minutes of television coverage you see only the outlandish
stuff. Visit a gay bar on a Friday night and you will see one
person in drag in 100 guys in jeans and a T-shirt. For every
one in leather, another 100 in jeans and polo shirts. Same
with the gay pride parades. With 500,000 attending a
Christian convention I could probably find...(a few with)
enough make-up to scare Tami Faye Bakker on Halloween. Sure
they are only a small percentage, but I bet I could make a 15
minute video totally misrepresenting the average person. I
have been to a couple of parades (Gay Pride) and neither
looked fractionally as weird as the coverage on the 700 Club
News with Pat Robertson. He covered the New York parade and I
saw his shameful editing skills. He sure misses thousands from
P-FLAG or Gay Christians, but never misses the handful of
DYKES ON BIKES or THE LEATHER GUYS. His editing looks like
90% are dressed that way instead of 9%." - Dean Kennedy
The Child Abuse Poppycock
The idea of trying to blame homosexuals for any child
abuse is shear poppycock! As 7/12/94 article in USA Today
"Child Molesters Rarely Homosexual" points out a child is 100
times as likely to be sexually abused by a heterosexual than a
gay adult. It's unfair to connect pedophile with gay or
lesbians.
The view that homosexuals are likely child molesters
often underlies custody challenges filed against gay parents
and the dismissal of gay Boy Scout and youth group leaders.
Dr. Carole Jenny of the University of Colorado Health
Sciences Center, Denver, studied 269 sexual abused children
examined during one year at Denver Children's Hospital.
Investigation shows:
80% of girls were molested by a man who was or had been
in a heterosexual relationship with the child's mother or
another relative. 75% of boys were abused by males in
heterosexual relationships with female relatives.
Only 1 of 219 girls was molested by a lesbian; 1 out of
50 boys by a gay male. This is a much lower percentage than
the likely 6-10% of the population that is homosexual,
therefore the incidence of gays molesting is much lower than
the rate for heterosexuals.
Children Raised in Homosexual Homes
Heterosexual children raised by homosexuals could no more
"become" homosexual than a born-eyed child raised with
blue-eyed parents would eventually become blue-eyed. As
reported in USA Today 8/16/94 "Gay men likely to raise
heterosexual sons". Why is it that nearly every homosexual
child was raised in heterosexual homes where heterosexuality
was not only the norm but expected and encouraged? Regardless
of the home environment, people are the sexual orientation
they are and home influences will not and cannot change that
anymore than it could cause one to change eye color.
Remember, in talking about homosexuals, we're not talking
about a group of immoral, twisted, perverted people who woke
up one morning and said "I'm going to choose to become
homosexual." Their orientation was not a matter of choice and
is a permanent part of their being, hence it is immoral for
any family or church to pressure such people to even try to
change. Notes on Jews and Homosexuality "It is not entirely
clear from biblical material that there is a ban on
homosexuality. It is true that later rabbis interpreted the
bible this way. However, excellent material has been outlined
in a book "Twice Blessed" which is a discussion of Judaism and
gays, edited by Andy Rose and Christie Bulka. Andy is a gay
social worker and active in the Jewish community. While
orthodoxy remains rooted to older interpretations of this
material, and remains largely homophobic, conservatism and
reform are making advances in the acceptance of gays with an
eye to the spirit of Judaism as the acceptance of all as
human beings worthy in G-d's eyes." Yael Ben-Ari on Prodigy.
Twice Blessed is ISBN #0-8070-7908-1 published by Beacon Press
Boston Ma. Discusses also gay rabbis.
Other references: Judaism: A Quarterly Journal of Jewish
Life and Thought, Vol 27 No 1, Winter issue 1978 (Sin, Crime,
Sickness or Alternative lifestyle: A Jewish Approach to
Homosexuality by Hershel Matt.
Article by Bradley Artson, Judaism and Homosexuality was written for Tikkun
Magazine, Vol. 3, #2 (3/88).
The Talmud And Jewish View
I have lots of problems with the Talmud. It prohibits
many things as Christians we do every day. The Talmud credits
the Gentiles with three observations of the commandments given
the sons of Noah: they do not draw up a marriage deed?
(kethubah) for males; they do not weigh the flesh of the dead
in a market; and they respect the Torah (Hullin 92b). The
first of the three is as puzzling as the last. Homosexual
marriages were well known in the Roman world, and most Jews
were familiar with such aspects of Roman life. Two
explanations seem likely: (1) the Talmud assumes that the
absence of legal documents for such relationships demonstrates
inferior status (ignoring the generally looser structure of
all Gentile marriages); or (2) kethubah refers not to the
legalization of the marriage but to a particular aspect of it,
probably the dowry agreement (see, e.g. Maimonides, The Guide
of The Perplexed, trans. M. Friedlander (New York, n.d.),
3:49).
In regard to Lev, the Jewish commentaries of Maimonides
and others agree that the passages in Lev 18-20 are not moral
values but as symbols of Jewish distinctiveness. Also
Mishnah's regarded homosexuality as punishable with all other
idolatrous or ritually impure behavior; as well as later by
Maimonides, who specifically and repeatedly equated homosexual
acts with matters like the hybridization of cattle, which had
long since become morally indifferent in the Christian
tradition. (See The Code of Maimonides, bk.5, The Book of
Holiness, 21.8)
In the Lev passages it is also unclear what is being
prohibited. The Hebrew reads literally, "You should not sleep
the sleep of a women with a man." Jewish moralists have
debated for a millennium about exactly what constitutes "the
sleep of a women" and who is technically a "man": see e.g. in
the Talmud, Sandedrin 7.4.53A; and Maimonides' commentary in
Code 5.1.14. Moreover, since the actions of the "kadeshim"
were specifically labeled as "toevah" (e.g., in 1 (3) Kings
14:24), one might well infer that the condemnation in
Leviticus were in fact aimed at curbing temple prostitution in
particular rather than homosexual behavior in general. This
was not the usual understanding of the later Jewish tradition,
but it is suggested by the LXX, upon which Christian moralists
drew.
As a Christian however, while respecting the Jewish right
to their views, I am much more interested in the New Testament
view which more clearly says nothing about today's homosexual
relationships.
Christian View of Slavery Same As Homosexuality
The use of Christian doctrine that falsely condemns
homosexuality is the same doctrine that the prior generation
used to condone the practice of buying and selling humans as
slaves. The Bible was used as justification for slavery,
right up to the moment it was made illegal. Slavery was a
common practice in the time of Jesus and earlier, yet Jesus
himself said nothing about it.
EX 21:20,21 God clearly says we can beat slaves to death.
Ex 21:1-6 God says if a master allows his male slave to get
married and have children, then the wife and children become
the master's property too. Even if the male slave should gain
his freedom, the wife and the children must remain with the
master. So much for family values! Ephesians 6:5 is the NT
support of slavery. Also according to Jewish culture at the
time a women was supposed to marry her rapist! Think what
following that requirement would do to a women raped today!
Christians claimed Leviticus 25 supports servitude of up
to 49 years. Although it was the Christians, not the Jews, who
used the Bible to defend slavery.
Montesquieu was considered a heretic for opposing
slavery, and his works were condemned. One of the most
infamous slave trading ships (that of Hawkins) was called the
Jesus. Slavery was viewed as the will of God, and slaves were
taught Christianity in order that they might recognize that
"truth" and realize and accept that slavery was the natural
order of things, sanctioned by the Bible itself. A minister
writing in 1860 (in "Slavery, Its Institution and Origin"
said: "So we see that God not only instituted slavery but He
also made it to forever be a part of the moral probation of
the human race, and to be a great lesson to the end of time of
his abhorrence of sin." Just over 100 years ago in this
country, people who considered themselves model Christians
honestly and completely believed that slavery was morally
right and opposing slavery was the real sin.
The South - the so called "Bible Belt" appealed to the
Bible to justify slavery. Remember that the Southern Baptist
church got its start in the 1840's precisely over the issue of
slavery. Preachers quoted Eph 6:5 to support slavery then,
just as vigorously as Jerry Falwell misquotes Romans 1 to
condemn homosexuality. But there's nothing unbiblical about
slavery. Like everyone else of his time, Paul regarded slavery
as a normal part of society. In Paul's time there was no
understanding of loving homosexuality, only the terrible acts
of pederasty - hetero males degrading other hetero males
sexually. The Bible doesn't change but society understanding
does.
Today 2000 years later, we no longer practice pederasty
or slavery. I hope soon, ant-gay sermons will be as dated as
pro-slavery or anti-race mixing sermons are today.
The Bible says not a word about homosexuality. The word
homosexual was not even included in the English translations
until about 1940. Only the confusion and ignorance about the
horrible practices of pederasty being falsely translated as
homosexuality is the cause of the false teachings and making
life so difficult for so many loving wonderful Christian gays
and lesbians.
Witness of a Pentecostal Christian Lesbian
Public Post from Lorraine Harris follows - What would
those that say they know God is against homosexuals say to
her? Do they know their communications with God is superior
to hers?
"I am a born-again believer, that is I met the Living
Jesus & have a personal relationship with him since 1963. I
am baptized in the Holy Ghost, and I speak in tongues and
operate in a number of other gifts."
"I am a "Lesbian" - I was born that way - for a number of
years I believed the teachings of the churches regarding
homosexuality, but in the early 1980's I had an experience
which made me question the traditional interpretation of the
Bible regarding homosexuality and God led me thru the
scriptures with a final conclusion that as far as I could see
homosexuality is not mentioned in the original texts of the
Bible, not in the O.T. nor in the N.T."
"It is certainly not mentioned nor prohibited in the
traditional scriptures used to do that. The fact is that for
many years I heard the Rama (Spirit) of God regarding many
things and yet I continued to accept the false teachings of
the church regarding homosexuality. After God showed me that
there was no prohibition to homosexuality in the Bible He also
showed me how that from time to time He tried to bring my
attention to that this truth but that my own internalized
homophobia prevented me from hearing from Him regarding these
truths."
Witness Of A Lesbian For Whom Heterosexuality Is The Unnatural Act Of
Romans 1
Felicia Fontaine now a clergyperson with MCC discussing Romans 1 and
"natural":
"I believe my internal, intrinsic nature is to be
lesbian, then for me to engage in heterosexual relationships
would be wrong. I will go so far as to say that when I did
try and deny my nature, my relationship with God suffered
tremendously because I used men to help me feel better about
myself, and I abused myself because I refused to accept who I
believed and still believe God made me to be."
A Minister Warning Homosexuals NOT to Join His Church Due
To Ignorance Ignorance and prejudice about homosexuality is
damaging even to the point of suicide. It is for that reason
that I do not encourage gays and lesbians to become of our
church and will not knowingly baptize one of God's gay
children into the church unless they are determined and fully
aware (and prepared to deal with) the hatred and prejudice
they will face at the hand of fellow members. We as a church
are not prepared to receive them and treat them with the
equality and dignity which we recognize is every other
minorities due. It is truly a sad state of affairs when
people must be shielded from the negative consequences
resulting from ignorance on the part of those who claim to
represent Christ. I'm reminded of Hosea 4:6 "My people are
destroyed for lack of knowledge," only in cases like this our
ignorance results in the destruction of other people. This is
the ultimate travesty for we are here to help rather than to
hurt people. Those with a sexual orientation that our members
are not prepared to deal with should be referred elsewhere for
spiritual nurture. As one stated "If you can't help them
(without insisting on chastity or changing their natural
sexual orientation), at least don't hurt them." Our church is
no place for a person with a homosexual orientation, and we
are the ones who lose out on the gifts and talents they can
offer the body of Christ. The Adventist church does not
support gays and lesbians unless they are willing to look with
loathing and repugnance upon their sexual orientation, and
spend their entire lives hating themselves for being what they
are and denying themselves totally when it comes to sexual
satisfaction. - Prodigy post Ron Astorly, Adventist minister.
Fortunately many Christian Churches are battling the
ignorance and false scriptural teachings and embracing gays
and lesbians. But others and within congregation fighting for
Gods love of all his children, regardless of what sexual
orientation He gave them, stirs up hatred and division among
Gods people. That is the abomination, not loving homosexual
relationships.
Catholic Reaction To Pope's Gay Attack
"I can only take so much. Homophobia has been part of
the Catholic Church for eons. But the Bishop of Rome
(henceforth, that is how I address him) went too far in
Vatican City when he viciously attacked Gay people who mean no
harm to anyone. I'm tired of being treated like trash by the
Catholic Church. It will be heart-wrenching to leave, but I
now realize that the Catholic Church hates me and will never
love me."
"I shall write the Bishop of Rome (he is no longer my
Pope) today although I know my letter will never, ever, be
read by anyone in Vatican City of any importance, at least I
will have had the satisfaction of explaining to hi Holiness
that his vicious attack yesterday on gay people while saying
Mass was the straw that broke the camel's back. I am no
longer a Roman Catholic as of TODAY. And I am shocked seeing
the sentence I have just written. I will go where I am loved
and accepted and treated with human dignity at all times." -
Xavier Salinger Public Prodigy post
Reply by John Bernardi:
"I sympathize with you completely. When I heard the
Pope's address, I became very angry and very hurt. I was
raised and educated in the Church and I finally realized how
hypocritical the Church is after all. How can A church
consider itself to be the heritage of Christ and proclaim a
policy of social discrimination and hatred? I guess I cannot
understand the outright hypocrisy of the whole matter. After
all, the Church has idolized what can be considered a
completely unnatural form of sexuality for centuries -
celibacy. Yet, at the same time, it is now quick to condemn
those individuals who seek to form healthy loving and
long-term gay relationships (in marriage). But, then, Xavier,
what can we really expect from a Church that only recently
admitted that after all Galileo was right. In recent years, I
have come to understand the difference between a relationship
with a loving and always-present God and a relationship with a
bureaucratic and dispassionate ecclesiastical organization."
"Congratulations! Perhaps now you can join me and many
others who could no longer accept an organization trapped by
its own homophobia and discrimination. Perhaps you will come
to agree with me that this was an organization that has lost
Christ's message of compassion and love. Instead, it has
become a Church guilty of blatant idolatry and ignorance."
New Catechism Admits Homosexuality Natural But Makes God
Very Unloving Catholics at least now recognize that
homosexuals have no choice in their sexual orientation (a fact
now proven psychologically and now finding genetic support)
but consider their condition is "aberrant behavior which is
against the natural order." Wow does that lack any logical
Congruence!
Lets see, God creates homosexuals giving them strong
sexual desires and then forces them to live a life of misery,
artificially repressing the natural sexual desire God gave
them. That's quite a mean God, certainly not the one I know.
First of all homosexuality is not a behavior, therefore
it can not be aberrant. Homosexuality is an inborn/innate
orientation not a behavior choice.
Heterosexuals never have to be forced into celibacy. Why
would God single out the persons created homosexual to live a
life of forced celibacy, and then permit them to be so
ostracized and abused by the heterosexual and religious
community! This is a loving God?
God created homosexuals to be homosexuals, responsible
homosexuals, just as God created heterosexuals to be
heterosexuals and to act as heterosexuals, responsible
heterosexuals! It is wrong for either to act irresponsibly.
Misuse or abuse of our sexuality, regardless of which variety,
is wrong because THAT is against Gods will.
Celibacy Is Unnatural
The vast number of "conversions" of natural homosexuals,
result not in a heterosexual desire but a life of celibacy out
of fear of God due to false teachings that somehow
homosexuality is sinful.
If a man is born with only one leg, we provide an
artificial leg, we don't pray that God will grow him a new
one. But in essence, the homosexual is told to pray a lot and
hop on one leg for all of life by being celibate.
This call to celibacy is like saying "you can be a bird,
but don't fly." Why would celibacy bring the homosexual into
God's ideal of an integrated life of love? Does a lifetime of
denial of true natural self and the refusal of the gift of
loving human sexuality be more Christ's will? I think not,
especially when no where in scripture is homosexuality as we
know it today even mentioned it as sinful.
Only the bigots and those that are perhaps so insecure
with their own sexuality teach lies of hate rather than what
is biblical - Christ's love for all that God created whether
they were born left handed, right handed, heterosexual,
homosexual or bisexual, it makes no difference. That's simply
how God created them - no matter how insecure you are that
doesn't change the facts.
Even Common In Earliest Man
In Sierra Da Capivara National Park in Brazil
archaeologists have uncovered rocks used as tools by man and
remains of fires dating back 60,000 years to the Stone Age.
Some 1000 families live close to the park, eking out a living
by hunting deer and armadillo. The people, most of them
illiterate, gave little importance to hundreds of paintings
found on the rocks of the mountains.
Faded images in red, white, black and gray of wildlife,
such as fish and deer, appear alongside stick-figures hinting
and giving birth and graphic illustrations of Stone Age sex.
Homosexuality, group sex and seemingly impossible
positions for intercourse testify to the relaxed lifestyles of
the ancient Brazilians. Guidon first heard of the paintings
around 20 years ago and has since dated them back as far as
12,000 years.
Over 500 Lutheran Church Leaders Support Gay/Lesbian Issues
During the biennial assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran
Church in America (ELCA), more than 500 church leaders broke
silence and made public their support for the ecclesiastical
recognition of loving committed relationships among lesbian
and gay people, and for the ordination of qualified women and
men as pastors and church professionals, regardless of sexual
orientation. These church leaders, known as the Network (to
end sexual discrimination in the ELCA), publicly released
their names to an official representative of the ELCA. The
group includes seminary professors, bishops, pastors, lay
leaders and others. Bishop Emeritus Stanley E. Olson, a
leader of the Network, is among those who publicly came out
with his support. Bishop Olson said, "I have witnessed the
unscriptural burdens the ELCA has placed on all of its many
gay and lesbian members, whether lay or ordained. Ass one who
has held the office of bishop in the church, I cannot remain
passive or silent."
Jesus' Praise For The Centurion Soldiers Slave Boy
In Matthew and Luke Jesus is portrayed as tolerant of a
pederastic relationship between the centurion and his "boy." A
centurion had a slave (doulos) whom he valued highly (or who
was very precious); this slave was ill and near death. Hearing
about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders with to request Jesus
to save his slave's life. The centurion had faith He could
cure him. Jesus said "I tell you, nowhere, even in Israel,
have I found faith like this." and healed the slave boy. (Luke
7:2-10).
The slightly different version in Matthew (8:5) refers in
each instance to the boy as "boy" (pais), not slave (doulos).
"Boy in Greek connotes a catamite or youth in a
homosexual/pederastic relationship in the Greco-Roman world.
These relationships were socially acceptable and not uncommon
in that culture. The boy would not be trained to become a
lifelong or adult homosexual if he was naturally heterosexual
but often would remain bisexual. This public acceptance of
pederasty, an institution which the Romans inherited from the
Greeks, was accompanied, however, by a measure of public
anxiety. Effeminacy and submissiveness, for example, were
viewed with contempt. Roman aristocratic families
increasingly protected their young men by law from such
assignments. Hence the pederastic relationship was
increasingly assigned to slaves, who had no social reputation
to lose.
The practice was very common in Jesus' day. Plutarch, the
Greek biographer, who traveled widely and taught in Rome, was
born about a decade after Jesus died. He discusses in his
"Dialogue on Love" the question whether the love of boys is
superior to the love of women, a critical question of the day.
The tradition of the Greeks held the love of boys to be
superior to a women.
Readers or hearers of the story in the first century
would unquestionably conclude, given the language that is used
that the centurion was a pederast and his boy a catamite.
Luke reinforces that impression by characterizing the boy as
"very precious" to him.
This supports a picture of Jesus as one who was tolerant
of such relationships, a picture that is congruent with the
rest of the New Testament. However, it is not enough to say
that Jesus was merely tolerant of this apparent pederastic
relationship. More then that, he was deeply impressed with
the centurions faith as to make it a prime example in his
teachings recalled by both Matthew and Luke.
Internet Reply to My Centurion Discussion: From Cliff Hammond Internet
Subject "Where does which Bible condemn Homosexuality":
"Dave, your discussion of the centurions servant is very
interesting. It raises some interesting questions. First, if
the ministry of Jesus was to the Jews, as we are told in the
Gospels, it is not surprising that the subject of
homoeroticism did not present, given that the Jews universally
considered homoeroticism (among males) to be a purity issue
(toevan, but not zemia) and a practice of the "unclean
Gentiles" with whom the Jews refused to mix socially.
Therefore, when the opportunity DID present - in a setting in
which the writers of the Gospels were not only recalling the
incident of faith and healing to Jewish Christians but also to
"Gentile" Christians - one would think that the writers of the
Gospels would have desired to clarify the issue IF IT WERE AN
ISSUE. Because, in their choice of words to label the
functional relationship of the young male servant with his
master, they did not rule out the possibility of homoeroticism
(The Greek word, pais, connotes inclusion of homoeroticism
within the scope of the master-slave relationship), they have
- perhaps unintentionally - proffered a very strong argument
from silence that such a homoerotic relationship simply was
not an issue for them and their Hellenic culture.
A discussion of the synoptic process might hold a key. If
it is true that Q Source and the original Aramaic Gospel of
Matthew was used as an outline for the Gospel of Mark, which
was then used together with the original Aramaic Matthew as
outlines for the Greek version of Matthew, it is interesting
that the story of the Centurian's pais does not appear in
Mark. That the story *does* appear in Luke using the Gk word
duablos (sp?) argues for the possibility that Luke also used
Aramaic Matthew (or Q) in addition to Mark as its outline. The
Question then becomes why did Luke use diablos and not pais?
If Luke used the gospel of Mark as an outline, where did
he get the story of the healing of the Centurian's servant?
From Aramaic Matthew? Luke's use of the Gk duablos for
"servant" could be circumstantially explained as translation
bias due to Luke's close association with Paul, a Pharisee who
did address homoeroticism in his Letter to the Romans as a
consequence of the Gentiles' idolatry.
Why did Peter's secretary, Mark, choose not to use the
story in his own gospel if he were truly using as his outline
the Aramaic Matthew and the stories of Jesus' messianic
ministry related by the Apostle Peter?
Why did the author of the Gk version of Matthew choose
the word pais translating from the original Aramaic Matthew
and using the Gospel of Mark as its outline?"
Nowhere in the NT did Jesus say a word, even
mistranslated about this pederastic practice, much less
anything about today's far different loving equal homosexual
relationships. That such an understanding of this text would
surprise the modern reader simply demonstrates the gulf that
separates the world of the biblical times and modern days in
the area of sexual values.
King David's Love For Jonathan
Samuel 1:25-26 clearly states male-male love is greater
than that of a women.
"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very
pleasant hast thou been unto me; THY LOVE TO ME WAS WONDERFUL,
PASSING THE LOVE OF WOMEN." - King James
or, Revised English " Jonathan lies slain on your
heights. I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you are most
dear to me; YOUR LOVE FOR ME WAS WONDERFUL, PASSING THE LOVE
OF WOMEN." Is the same in all modern English versions.
The speaker is King David. David was Jonathan's
brother-in-law While some may not like the FACT that this is
what the scripture says it does clearly state that the love
between two men can be greater than between a man and a women.
Many Christians are homophobic. They should try really loving
homosexuals and they might find the fact homosexuals can
deeply love each other not so difficult to grasp and accept.
CONCLUDING STATEMENT USED ON PRODIGY
Since I don't care to just go on debating with those that
know they know what is right for others, this is going to try
and be a concluding two part post on the issue. I am happy to
share and discuss all points, but when the discussion just
gets to arguing without any interest in seeking truth with an
open mind, it is not productive.
More and more sincere Christian theologian, scholars,
historians and mainline congregations are finding that
scriptures have been falsely translated or used to imply
homosexuality is somehow a sin rather than the natural
orientation it is. In the past many, including myself, just
accepted the traditional teachings. But as more serious study
of the original Greek/Hebrew and culture is done, it seems
clear to many, that scripture says absolutely nothing about
today's homosexual relationships.
My biggest issue is that a Christian, before declaring
homosexuality a sin, needs to first examine the huge amount of
scholarship of sincere Christians that clearly show its only
the false traditional teachings that make homosexuality a sin,
clearly not the word of God. I can post lists and summaries of
a sample of these studies.
For many the thought is just too repulsive to consider,
so they will refuse to listen since they are too homophobic to
learn the truth. I may have been guilty of this in the past,
since I don't even like to hug a man much less.... Others
have a more open mind and will explore the issue for
themselves not just accepting the same traditional views that
in the past supported slavery, illness as demon possession,
and Galileo's almost demise for teaching the earth was round,
since this was heresy as the scriptures clearly say the earth
is flat and the center of the universe.
Also I suggest considering the living hell many sincere
Christians experience just because God made them with a
minority sexual orientation. Many wonderful, sincere Christian
gays and lesbians find none of Christ's love in many Christian
churches and flee, not knowing it the false teaching causing
them to flee not the truth of God's love for them, as He
created them.
Many have tried for decades to deny their natural
sexuality and force themselves either into fake heterosexual
relationships or celibacy (just as bad) thinking they have to
please God.
Many finally get connected with other Church's where they
learn God loves them just as He created them without having to
change. That is, if they don't wind up committing suicide
before they find the love of Christ rather than the judgement
of Christians based on Levitical laws that we ignore in most
other areas, or Paul's teachings which is about pederasty not
homosexuality. It is interesting Jesus never said a word
close to the subject and in fact Jesus shows special support
for the love of the Centurion for his sick slave boy that
appears to be a homosexual pederasty relationship.
Many so called change ministries have come and gone
trying to make gays straight. Since you can't change nature
these have been terrible failures. I can post many documented
examples and studies of the total failure of change
ministries.
Remember the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus changes all
the "laws and the prophets" and replaces them with the only
law of love.
For those not capable or willing to seriously study this
issue, I suggest you cover your mouth when you speak. Just
like with a cold or any disease, the sickness of false
teaching is easily spread. In this case it is destroying many
lives and causing many Christians to turn away from Christ to
find God's real love.
I look forward to standing before God and being judged on
my acceptance of all His children regardless of race, sex, or
sexual orientation, will you be so comfortable? What if all
the theologians exposing the false teachings of it being a
sin, are correct and you are so wrong? Sample Of Real Gays
Feelings Posted On Prodigy
Board: MEDICAL SUPPORT BB
Topic: DEPRESSION/ANX/OCD
Subject: GAY YOUTH SUPPORT
To: ALL Date: 09/26
From: AHXP28D ROB RYAN Time: 11:28 PM
I hate to bring this board down to earth or anything but
I have a lot I wanted to share with you all, so that
hopefully it might help someone from getting into the mess I
let myself get into. Where to start....
Since about Christmas 93, my whole life has been about
death, all I wanted to do is die, my ambition was to be in a
fatal accident since I was unsuccessful (and afraid) of
suicide. I constantly thought about it.. almost every day.
When I found this board, I wrote some notes.. many 'coded' -
by that I mean, not very straight forward, kind of in riddles.
I didn't want to say that I was suicidal. I'd write here for
a while, get nothing from it and feel resentful. I felt so
trapped - thought I had no where to go. I tried to call some
phone number that I got here and elsewhere but had some very
bad experiences with them. In one night I called 3 so called
support groups and ended up eating a pack of sleeping pills
that night (over-the counter - no harm done, just a scare).
About 2 months ago, I came out to a friend of mine from work -
she was the first. None of my family live here and this friend
and I have become very close and one night after long and hard
thought I told her - she knew something was up because I would
be depressed so often. Anyway, after that, I thought
everything would be OK, I thought this would change my life -
but it didn't.
After about six weeks I felt worse than ever and that's
when the little sleeping pill incident took place. About six
weeks later brings us up to yesterday. The last few days I had
lost my appetite, just wanted to sleep all day and night etc,
thought about killing myself constantly. Yesterday, I surfaced
about 12:30 pm, drove down to the Laundromat to pick up my
laundry and headed back home. I just wanted to end it, I
couldn't get the steering wheel to veer into the lampposts. I
was a wreck. I got home, got about 20 feet of cable from the
closet and headed for the attic. I wanted to hang myself but
there were no rafters there. I came into my bedroom and
searched for pills but only had 3 tagamet and 2 or 3 sleeping
pills. I thought about slashing my wrists, but could never
bring myself to do that. My mind was exploding right inside my
head, and I couldn't handle it. At that time, my friend
(we'll call Joan) called me on the phone. She sensed
something was wrong and I told her I needed help. Finally.
She has been asking me to see a therapist or something for
months, and I kept telling her there was nothing wrong, and I
can handle anything myself - W R O N G ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Last night for the first time in my life, I spoke openly,
face to face with two gay counsellors. It was very, very
difficult at the start, but they made me feel very comfortable
and at ease, and spent a lot of time with me. Today is a new
day in the start of my new life, which I am going to dictate
the pace. If I want to remain in the closet - that's my
choice. If others don't accept me - that's their choice.
There is no wrong way, or right way, or 'normal' way, or
common way, or any other way of coming to terms with ones
sexuality. It is so personal. And until the persons mind, can
accept the simple fact that a small part of their life is
'different' from 'everyone' else, then they are not ready to
go forward. I am now ready to move on, slowly. I'm going to
take my time, do it as I want to.
Just thought I'd share that with you. Love & Peace....
Rob.
Questions for Heterosexuals
When did you decide to become heterosexual ?
Might your heterosexuality just be a phase you will grow
out of ?
Is it possible you just have an neurotic fear of people
of your same sex?
Isn't it possible that all you need is a good same sex
lover?
Your heterosexuality doesn't offend gays as long as you
don't try and force it on them. Why do you feel compelled to
seduce others into your heterosexual orientation?
Why do you insist on holding hands and being obvious
making a public spectacle of your heterosexuality? Can't you
just be what you are and keep it quiet?
How can you fully satisfy and understand your partner of
the opposite sex when there are so many obvious physical,
biological and temperamental differences between you that are
so vast?
How can a man understand what pleases a women sexually
and vice-versa?
With all the societal support for marriage, the divorce
rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships
among heterosexuals?
How could the human race and all of nature survive if
everyone were heterosexual like you, considering the menace of
overpopulation to humanity and the environment?
--------------------------------------------------------
Note: This is a public letter to Pat Robertson from
OzActivist@aol.com, reposted on Prodigy by Bill Ply. It shows
how dangerous Pat Robertson is in that so many of his "fans"
actually believe his lies and false teachings concerning
homosexuality. Pat is an abomination that needs to be exposed
as such. He is a disgrace to Christians who seek scriptural
truth not the perverted traditional views that have changed
the original texts for an agenda based on repression and
control.
Re-posted by Davephx@primenet.com a biblical Christian
who happened to have been born very heterosexual. I didn't
choose my heterosexual orientation, it was simply how I was
born. The same is true for those born homosexual or bisexual.
Their only "sin" is being just as God created them. The "sin"
is in the false teachings and twisting by the likes of Pat
Robertson.
Subject: PAT ROBERTSON
To: ALL
From: BILL PY (NPYR87B)
FEEDBACK:
* From OzActivist@AOL.COM: [A letter to Pat Robertson,
whose 700 Club is presenting a 3-part 3-day series on
homosexuality March 26-28,1996]
Dear Dr. Robertson,
Hope all is well with you. I am writing you concerning
the first of your "three part series on homosexuality:
dispelling the myths".
I am glad you at least put on a sugar coated patina of
"loving concern" this time around and dropped the
"homosexuals are Nazis and Satanists" sound bite, but your
broadcast still very much angered me. You did not dispel a
single myth, you spread them nationwide tonight like so
much fertilizer. And you are doing two more just like this
tomorrow and Thursday.
My father has always loved, supported and accepted me,
Pat, EXCEPT for my sexual orientation. According to your
obsolete notions, then, I ought to be heterosexual. Well,
I'm not. The only way he could have been more accepting
would be to drop his religion-based homophobia, and yet
this is exactly what you do not want him to do.
You claim that "most" lesbians are lesbian because of
sexual abuse by males. You threw out a figure like "29%"
which is certainly not "most" by any standard. Does it ever
occur to you, Pat, that one reason many lesbians are raped
or abused by predatory men is that the man finds out the
woman's sexual orientation and then threatens to tell
everyone unless she goes along with his wishes? Others have
raped lesbians claiming that they have a Godgiven
imperative to "teach them how to be a woman". I had such a
friend in Santa Barbara who was raped by an HIV positive
straight man and died of AIDS in 1994. She is dead in part
because of the myths spread by people like you.
Such antigay figures as Dr. Socarides and Phyllis
Schlafly have gay children. How do you explain that? Were
they bad parents? Then what business do they have telling
other parents how to raise their children???? You insist
that most homosexuals are unhappy because all the ones that
called your counsellors said so. Does it occur to you that
the ones who are well adjusted and accept themselves would
not be calling your counselling lines in the first place?
Hello???
Furthermore, does it ever occur to you that any
homosexuals who are unhappy are that way not because it is
pathological but because of the level of antigay
persecution and sometimes the difficulty in meeting the
"right person" from a small portion of the population than
heterosexuals can choose from? Have you ever read studies
that show that gays are happier in liberal big cities than
in intolerant rural and small town places?
Your show's "refutations" of the gene studies were very
weak. You commented on the fact that not all identical
twins had the same sexual orientation as "proof" that it
cannot be genetic. First of all, there is no way to prove
some of the twins were not lying about their sexual
orientation, and second, sexual orientation may also be
influenced by in utero levels of hormone exposure. It's
been found that human twins often receive disparate hormone
exposure even if they are gestated at the same time.
Experiments with lab mammals have found these exposures can
permanently determine the animal's sexual orientation, and
there may be some parallels to human development. It ain't
just the genes, pal.
For someone so obsessed with other women's pregnancies
and their right to decide on whether to terminate them,
Pat, you certainly are ignorant about reproduction.
You also cited the fact that one study's author was gay,
and that therefore the study had to be rejected as biased.
Then you had Robert Knight of Family Research Council, an
antigay group, comment. Why are "biased" sources discounted
when they disagree with you and counted when they agree
with you? You mentioned that the Hamer study was being
investigated for fraud, but so is antigay researcher Paul
Cameron, who was expelled for distorting the findings of
other researchers and expelled by the APA in 1984. And what
did you do, Pat? You had Mr. Cameron appear on the 700 Club
as a "scientific expert on homosexuality". HA!
Your guest, Mr Davies of Exodus, claims he is proof that
homosexuality is not permanent because he was attracted to
men for a while and never acted on it. That is not coming
out of homosexuality, Pat, that is called bisexuality. Look
it up in the dictionary. The fact that not all people are
gay or straight does not mean it is not hereditary, only
that it may be a mix, much as hair color has a broad
spectrum that is determined by genes.
I certainly felt bad for the woman featured tonight who
said she grew up teased for her appearance and was never
accepted. My arm was broken in seventh grade gym because a
ninth grader had decided I was a "Faggot". I can only shudder
to think what would have happened if he had actually known
that for a fact. I also shudder to think what would have
happened if I had succeeded in a 1984 suicide attempt that
resulted in a two week hospital stay and extensive
counselling, as a result of which I am now mentally healthy
and productive. But, I still have scars on my left hand to
remind me that this happens to lots of kids
This is the kind of event that some schools are trying
to stop by teaching students it is wrong to be hateful toward
gay young people, and your followers, Pat, are the ones
resisting that every step of the way.
Your story on this woman implied that she became a
lesbian because of her loneliness and someone who "recruited"
her by showing love and acceptance. Then, you talk about this
fundamentalist woman who did the same thing, and cite this as
"proof" that people can "come out of homosexuality". Pat, the
two situations are the same thing. She was looking for love
and she probably is still attracted to women. Her sexual
orientation has nothing to do with her being celibate.
As documented by the APA, Exodus is a fraud that has
left thousands of gay and lesbian people with huge bills and
crushed psyches. Its male cofounders didn't even stay
straight, they fell in love with each other and denounced the
group. What a farce!
A Tennessee woman in your audience asked what her church
should do about a gay man who had a sex change to female. She
seemed very sincerely concerned. You visibly snickered.
Gender reassignment surgery costs up to $30,000 dollars, Pat,
and it is only allowed if the patient has extensive
counselling first to make sure this drastic change is the
right idea. This person was in a lot of pain if he went
through all that to become a she, and what was your Christian
response to that? You snickered and then said "I think this
is such a small group of people that it doesn't really
matter".
Well. I thought you believed "A person is a person is a
person"? Gays and lesbians, according to you, are a small
group of people, and yet you spend almost all your time
obsessed with making their lives difficult. A lot of
transgendered people are not gay to begin with. Please read
some materials on this phenomenon. A Tennessee man in the
audience then asked whether gays were really 10% of the
population, and you claimed this was only found by fraudulent
studies done by Kinsey. You said that "every study I've seen
has shown that 2% of men and 1% of women are lesbians and
that's it!" Pat, with people like you around encouraging
hostility to gays and lesbians, did it occur to you that a lot
of people surveyed probably lied that they were straight or
refused to participate? Hello??
Even your "scientific" friend Dr Paul Cameron, who hates
gays so much he has called for their extermination (see Koop's
autobiography), puts the figure at 3% (TIME, Nov 15 1992).
Your cohost, Terry Meeuwwsen, claimed PFLAG stood for "Parents
Friends and *Lovers* of Gays". The LAG actually stands for
Lesbians and Gays. You are that ignorant about a group that
you are suing to stop ads that accurately patote your own
hateful words?
Finally, you explicitly said that "sexual orientation"
does not keep anyone from going to heaven, and that only if
homosexuals are "in the promiscuous lifestyle" will they go to
hell. The assumption here seems to be that homosexuals are
either celibate or promiscuous, never monogamous. Have you
ever read the Ninth Commandment that you keep trying to force
public schools to display? Your confusion of the Koine Greek
word for temple prostitute in Revelations with "homosexual"
was a particularly poor bit of Biblical exgesis, but I
digress.
Directly following your 9 pm broadcast, your Family
Channel featured a "Three Stooges" short in which the Stooges
dressed up as women. Now why, Pat, do you take the
"abomination" thing about homosexuals so seriously and then
feature crossdressing on your network, when Leviticus mention
*both* as abominations?
It appears, Pat, that you really take your show, and the
pain of people like the transgendered woman your audience
mentioned, about as seriously as you take the Stooges. Shame
on you. You are causing real pain and violence, Pat, and you
need to STOP IT. NOW.
Pat Robertson concluded his three-part series tonight on
the Family Channel about the "Myth" of homosexuality by
declaring that, "The nightmare of AIDS is a consequence of a
person's behavior." Once again, Pat hit hard on the theme that
for one man to lie down with another is an abomination. He
also made repeated reference to a transformation which he and
his co-hosts described as "Coming out of homosexuality."
Videotaped footage of a gay man was shown. In the
interview, the man stated, "I struggled with homosexuality for
over ten years."
Pat said that "Prayer helped him overcome his attraction
to men," but it was too late: "He died as a result of his
homosexual behavior."
In-studio guest, Anita Worthen was brought out to give
her testimony as to what it is like to be a Christian mother
of a gay man. Her son, 31, has full-blown AIDS and according
to her, "was led into the homosexual lifestyle by a guidance
counselor. He was seduced and trapped by him. Not having a
father figure around causes homosexuality," in her opinion.
Her son had a lover of 10 years who died of AIDS. She said you
can still show love to your children without showing them
approval." [Love without affirmation? I don't think so.]
"Homosexuality causes parents to go through shame...guilt..."
Later, Anita married one of the founders of Exodus (a
"de-gaying support group" which uses fear and coercion to
brainwash homosexuals into a twisted brand of Christianity).
Her own husband was homosexual until he was forty-something.
They married when he was 55. Pat asked her what was going
through her mind when she married him, "knowing he had been a
homosexual," and she responded, "Sex isn't a big thing for
women." She said they just cuddle.
Pat actually said that sexual preference is going to go
away with age. "Then, what happens with your spirit?" he
asked, rhetorically.
Pat said hundreds of people have been calling in to the
700 Club the past couple of days who want out of
homosexuality. "Many of them are depressed and suicidal
because of it." He urged viewers in this situation to call his
ministry by saying, "If you want to be free, I want you to
call, right now."
A person wrote in a question to Pat Robertson that was
read on the air to ask if they should attend their brother's
gay wedding. Pat answered, "I don't think so. I think showing
up to that wedding would be putting your stamp of approval on
it. Tell your brother, 'I think it's wrong and I just can't go
along with this stuff.'"
Dr. Robertson also explained that the concept that God is
a God of Love is misunderstood. "He's also a God of Wrath.
Read Deuteronomy. When Moses is speaking... 'You shall love
the Lord your God and fear the Lord your God. God is a
consuming fire.' He sets standards for human beings." Pat
used adultery as an example.
Also in Pat Robertson's own words:
"Homosexuality is not loving, it's lust. And whether or
not YOU think it's love is tough luck."
"I think we are destroyed when we have this Council of
Rabbis and Churches, which says that we have to acknowledge
this so-called loving relationship. God says, 'I don't
recognize it.'" Pat rationalized his tone by declaring, "This
isn't harsh, we LOVE people."
"Homosexuality is bringing terrible disease to the world,
not just AIDS - Intestinal disease, and various other types of
so-called STDs, we have an epidemic of STDs," Pat also said.
In response to another alleged viewer question, Pat said
that effeminate mannerisms will go away if a person comes out
of homosexuality. "Effeminate mannerisms are learned."
Co-host, Terry Meeuwwsen also observed, "a man carries himself
a certain way."
Perhaps the only humor in the program came when Pat
referred to a previous segment in the series that highlighted
a transsexual. "[She] was gorgeous, with the makeup and
everything. Still a good-looking man, even though he was now a
woman. He drew my attention." Pat seemed disoriented and
slightly confused as he squirmed in his seat.
Pat and his co-hosts compared homosexuality to alcoholism
and drug addiction.
He also complained that P-FLAG was accusing him of
causing teen depression and suicides. He lamented, "I'm just
trying to tell the loving truth of the Gospel. If people feel
guilty, it's because they feel that way for not following the
laws of God. They hate what they're doing and not sure how
they can get out of it."
Pat said, "That's no reason to go to the Gay Parade in
San Francisco and blaze out."
Bill Py, Special Contributor, G/L/B/T BB
Note: Pat Robertson's e-mail address is: webmaster@cbn.org
Replies of interest:
From: RON SEELEY (HYUT32A)
Replying to another comment of JG:
JG, my sentiment exactly. I enjoyed reading Bill's
message to Robertson and appreciate the time he spent
researching and composing it. I specially liked his
documentation of the lies and distortion of simple everyday
fact. But people like Robertson get similar messages like this
all the time. It's just part of the cost of doing business -
you win some you loose some. Sometimes I try to put myself in
Robertson's position with all that dough rolling in and,
although I see myself as a fairly nice guy, it sure would be a
temptation to keep the ball rolling onto bigger and better
things. As you say, he knows what buttons to push. It seems
that's about all he does know. It's a simple trick, but the
dollars just keep on coming. Now, why can't I find a job like
that?
The sad thing though is that Robertson is the antithesis
of the one that he purports to emulate. Instead of Christ I
fear we have a Judas in our midst. As the story goes, in the
beginning Judas truly loved Christ. The problem was that
Christ never grew into the person Judas wanted him to be. The
truth is that when you look deeply into the heart of everyman
you will find a Judas. It's just that most do not allow
themselves to become a prostitute for that baseness. But then
again - some do. Hope this helps. Ron
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dave, Liberated Christians, Phoenix AZ
NEW: Christian Poly Resource Center under construction at
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